Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2002/12/07

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Subject: [Leica] The Police and the Constitution
From: Marc James Small <msmall@infi.net>
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 14:23:04 -0500
References: <NABBLIJOIFAICKBIEPJJMEGFDBAB.darkroom@ix.netcom.com>

The US Supreme Court has, on at least several occasions, held that the
police have the right to ask you your name and for identification, day or
night, without the need for probable cause that you are involved in any
improper activity.  And, if you have identification, you are required to
show this to them, be it as little as an envelope with your address on it.

Beyond that, the muddy waters start moiling and roiling.  The above is
FEDERAL law;  many states have tighter standards but none can have ones
more favorable to the police than the Federal standards.

If a police officer asks you to stop, you must generally do so.  (At four
in the morning, an anonymous voice blaring out of the dark to "halt!" could
probably be ignored but I'd not go much further than that.)

But, beyond that, a police officer needs to have "probable cause" to stop
you save for a reasonably established road-block.  If a crime has been
committed, or is reasonably believed to be in progress, the police may stop
everyone until they can identify them.

The Supreme Court detests the police's distinction between "detained" and
"arrested".  If you are not free to leave, you are under arrest, whether or
not those magic words are uttered by Sergeant Murphy or Lieutenant Arsat or
whoever.  The police will splutter and moan, and the local courts will find
a work-around to protect the image of the Force but, in the end, if you
cannot leave, you are under arrest.

I am not aware of any "24-hour rule", at least here in Virginia.  Here, if
you are arrested, you must be charged "in a reasonable time";  our local
courts normally accord the police two to four hours to get to a magistrate
and to swear out the warrant.  And, if you are drunk or on drugs, you can
be held until you have sobered up, normally six hours or so.  But that is it.

The standards are simply set out, but their application in a given set of
circumstances is much tougher, as Brian has repeated set out.  One thing to
bear in mind is that the Courts, including the US Supreme Court, will
always give the police a LOT more leeway at 3 in the morning than they have
at 3 in the afternoon, though all Courts deny doing so and become upset if
you argue this before them, even if you then win the case.

So, a public event at 12 noon is under a far more stringent standard to be
observed by the minions of the law than would be a chance encounter on a
back alley-way at 2:22 in the AM.

Marc



msmall@infi.net  FAX:  +276/343-7315
Cha robh bąs fir gun ghrąs fir!

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Replies: Reply from S Dimitrov <sld@earthlink.net> (Re: [Leica] The Police and the Constitution)
Reply from S Dimitrov <sld@earthlink.net> (Re: [Leica] The Police and the Constitution)
In reply to: Message from "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@ix.netcom.com> (RE: [Leica] Is this believable?)