Re: [Leica] Leicavit, After Market Products, etc.

["animal" <s.jessurun95@chello.nl>]

You are overlooking i believe an important point especially for the American
market and that is advertising and product perception.Especially in the
United States consumers do not decide logically but are won over by
advertising and hype.
In that regard sometimes one has to offer a product at an inflated price.
People will not even buy it if it is cheaper.
If real Vuitton handbags cost 5 dollars people would buy  little zeros or
whatever.
I bet a lot of normally quite sane New York girls go crazy for Manolo
Blahniks without ever having try them on just because "sex in the
city".Probably the same goes for the winder.
If you try mr.Tom,s product ,instantly you know that it,s well built ,a lot
sturdier then any camera and highly functional but it,s not an expensive
Leica part making it less desirable to the general public.
simon


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "bdcolen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net>
To: <leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 9:38 PM
Subject: RE: [Leica] Leicavit, After Market Products, etc.


> I'm not saying, Kit, that economics don't play a part in pricing - of
> course they do. But again, the bottom line is that, as a consumer, all I
> want to know is who is selling the best product at the best price. And
> in this case, Tom Abrahamson wins in a walk...:-)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> [mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us] On Behalf Of Kit
> McChesney | acmefoto
> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 3:24 PM
> To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> Subject: RE: [Leica] Leicavit, After Market Products, etc.
>
>
> B.D.--
>
> With all due respect, I respect Tom's products very much. I want to sell
> them. I know they're built like tanks! I'm only playing devil's
> advocate, that is, they are different, there are different "machines"
> making them. I would have expected the price to be closer, too. At the
> same time, they are made in different countries, with different
> economies, different conditions altogether. There are differences that
> make their prices different. Am I saying that the differences are
> justified? Not necessarily. I am pointing out that to me, some of
> Austin's reasoning seems ... well, unreasonable! Reducing the argument
> to the fact that "some schmoe CEO drives a Beemer" doesn't cut it for
> me. Sorry! ;-)
>
> And really, B.D., can you say that economics has nothing to do with what
> things cost? I mean, let's say that someone makes an MP
> look-and-act-alike. And does it for less than Leica can do it. They've
> made a knockoff of an MP by duplicating every part inside the camera,
> but have not had to invest in the cost of design and manufacture that
> Leica had to make. And maybe they improve on the design, too, in the
> process. But the investment in the design isn't there. It's someone
> else's design. And design and development and research isn't cheap.
>
> I'm not saying that this is what Tom has done, not at all, and if anyone
> says that I am saying that, I'll be the first to poke you in your
> viewfinder eye; I know that Tom took the original design and changed it
> radically and made a superior product to the original Leicavit. And I do
> believe that the new Leicavit will have to be, as I said, superior to
> Tom's, in order to beat it out among those who appreciate the pure
> functionality of the product.
>
> Kit
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> [mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us]On Behalf Of bdcolen
> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 12:27 PM
> To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> Subject: RE: [Leica] Leicavit, After Market Products, etc.
>
>
> But Kit, with an ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF RESPECT DUE - :-) - as Austin has in
> effect, if not in so many words, pointed out:
>
> Only one thing is relevant to potential customers who do not 'get off'
> by paying money for things that say "Leica" on them:
>
> Is the Leica product more efficient, or more reliable, or easier to use
> so that it justifies paying the much higher price? Remember - and this
> has nothing to do with personal loyalty to Tom A. - the Abrahamson
> Rapidwinder is built like a tank, functions flawlessly, and has been
> proven in use over a number of years. It truly does take one hell of a
> lickin and keep on functioning, NOT tickin.'
>
> The question of who had higher development cost, who would or would not
> have developed the product had someone not developed a version of it
> first, the question of who drives what kind of car or has what kind of
> health insurance, is all very interesting for a discussion in an
> economic class, but shouldn't have anything to do with purchasing
> decisions.
>
> With ALL due respect - :-)
>
> B. D.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> [mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us] On Behalf Of Kit
> McChesney | acmefoto
> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 2:09 PM
> To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> Subject: RE: [Leica] Leicavit, After Market Products, etc.
>
>
> With MORE all due respect to everyone, including Tom, there is one
> factor that we haven't actually factored into this equation: Tom's
> products would not exist in their current configuration (if at all) had
> Leica not invested in R&D in the original Leicavit product when it was
> first introduced. That fact may or may not be relevant now, but it is
> true that it would be much easier for one to take apart an existing
> product and remanufacture or improve upon the original design, than to
> make a totally new design, completely from scratch. There is engineering
> and design time and investment in the original product that is absent
> from the manufacture of the redesigned product made by an after-market
> concern. Not only that, but there is a tremendous investment in the
> total product line, with hundreds of items from lenses to cameras to
> parts ad infinitum, that is absent from the small after-market
> operation. Every Leica product that is currently manufactured is part of
> a manufacturing matrix, a web of products that are interconnected in
> thousands of different ways, both in design and in overall cost to
> create. Don't forget all that.
>
> Reducing the price differences to whether the CEO drives a
> company-leased BMW is ... well, I won't say silly, but ... how about
> simplistic? (Sorry Austin, but we've had this discussion before about
> gray market costs versus authorized market). The expense of a car lease
> or other costs for travel and meals, and whatever--if in fact there is
> one, and we do not know if there is a car lease, remember--are probably
> less relevant to the price of the unit in question than are other costs
> related more directly to research, development, manufacturing,
> transportation to market, etc., which are much higher overall and more
> directly related to the price of the product. Yes, compensation is a
> factor, but we are also talking about two very different kinds of
> companies, too. One a very small company, the other a company with a
> global reach and a wider range of markets.
>
> My .02 cents. ;-)
>
> Kit
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> [mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us]On Behalf Of Austin
> Franklin
> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:21 AM
> To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> Subject: RE: [Leica] Comments on a BD Colen statement & PMA
>
>
> > The fact that the Leicavit costs 1.5X the cost of the Winder-M is
> > troubling.
>
> Patrick,
>
> I believe you have failed to factor in the "Ivory Tower" factor...  You
> don't think Herr Cohn drives a Hyundai, now do you?  My guess is the
> company leases a new BMW for him at least every two years...  You don't
> think he stays in a Holiday Inn when traveling, or eats at Friendly's
> for a "night out on the town" with clients?  I'm sure this is all
> factored into the price of the Leicavit, and other Leica products.
>
> Not that there's anything wrong with that, mind you...but if what I jest
> about is even remotely true, realize you are subsidizing that with your
> Leica purchase...and again, not that there is anything wrong with
> that...
>
> ;-)
>
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