Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2005/01/24
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]If that is technically feasible, I thinks that's a superb concept for a high end digi-M body. Scott Douglas M.Sharp wrote: > Scott, what Leica needs to do is make a basic M style chassis with > modular > digital components which can be updated or upgraded whenever the user > or advances in technology demand it. > Imagine a choice of sensors, an off-camera viewing screen (any size > you like!) with a a couple of Gigabytes storage too. > You didn't preview on a film M so why do it on a digi-M? With raw > format you get all the advantages of a negative/slide/darkroom anyway. > Replaceable software chips or updates are no problem either. I never > saw any real point in trying to put components for every possible > option into a camera so let the user choose his/her frame size, > resolution, ISO range or whatever. As long as the chassis has the > Leica feeling,quality and longevity we know and love, and the lenses > remain the same, the camera is a real Leica. Just plug in the bits you > need and > away you go. > Douglas > > Scott McLoughlin wrote: > >> B.D. >> >> These are excellent points. Your focus on digital is appropriate. >> Film cameras have >> a long lifetime, and while I believe cranking the prices up further >> on the existing M >> bodies is ill conceived, the price is perhaps justified for by the >> build quality and >> longevity of the camera. I still believe there is a lower price >> point entry-level >> opportunity for Leica in film, yes - similar to Zeiss. All else being >> equal, right >> now most folks would pick a Leica film body over a Zeiss equivalent >> given the >> choice. Leica is not giving new buyers that choice. >> >> >> But yes, digital is the real opportunity. The problem, well discussed >> on this list, is >> that customers do not perceive that a digital body will have a useful >> life many >> decades long. Leica needs to deliver (1) a product (2) at a price >> appropriate to >> the new technology to attract new customers. Leica needs to price a >> digital M >> body at a price appropriate to rapid depreciation over five years. >> >> We must admit - this is really different from the typical Leica modus >> operandi. >> Yes, the lenses should have a longer shelf life. M-mount is the way >> to go. But >> if creating a new family of wides, for example, optimized for the new >> digital >> platform is more cost effective than delaying production in order to >> support >> every SA out there - then so be it. >> >> Ultimately, as you note, Leica's customer base is aging and dying >> off. Leica must >> somehow reach out to a new generation of customer in order to >> survive. I'm 38 >> years old and snagged my first 2 M6's this year to support my photo >> hobby. I love >> the product. Wandering about the world (perhaps a well heeled portion >> of the world, >> I'll admit), numerous people note my Leica gear and express their own >> wishes to >> own Leica gear. Leica needs to make this possible and somehow manage >> to take >> their money at a profit. >> >> If this requires new partnerships, manufacturing methods, product >> design and pricing , >> reconfiguring the dealer network and so on the market and support >> such a product >> for a new generation of buyers - then so be it. Serving only the >> existing customer base >> is a plan for certain eventual demise. >> >> No, I do not envision Leica gear sitting next to the digicams at Best >> Buy. But even a >> company that markets premium, boutique products must change with the >> times, >> attract new customers and ultimately grow sales and profits. >> >> Scott >> >> B. D. Colen wrote: >> >>> There are two big problems with this analysis, Scott - >>> 1. In terms of suggesting that the way to go - film and digital - is >>> with drastically lower price points, etc.: The company you're >>> describing >>> isn't Leica; never has been, never will be. If Leica can put out a >>> Leica >>> quality $1500 body, and $750-$1500 lenses, the move begs two >>> questions - >>> a. Why not just buy Cosina or Zeiss? Two, what the hell have they been >>> doing ripping us off all these years? ;-) >>> 2. The landscape is not littered with people waiting to jump into the >>> world of film. The world of film is the Titanic with it's stern in the >>> air; most people have already made it into the digital boats, or have >>> slipped into the ocean, and there is a handful of diehards clinging to >>> the stern rail screaming "film forever!" The question is not how to >>> attract new masses to Leica, it's how to hang on to the fanboys (and >>> girls) and what kind of digital product to introduce to hopefully >>> capture a new user base. >>> >>> Oh, and as to the idea of an M that requires new lenses - good bleeping >>> luck. The only thing that will now draw people to a Leica digital RF - >>> well, will draw the people who are NOT prepared to buy everything Leica >>> builds simply because it has the name Leica on it - is a desire to use >>> the lenses in which they have invested so much money, and which are >>> clearly high quality. But an entirely new digital product that requires >>> all new lenses - at Leica prices? No way. >>> >>> B. D. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org >>> [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of >>> Scott McLoughlin >>> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 2:55 AM >>> To: Leica Users Group >>> Subject: Re: [Leica] Doomed: Leica MP 0.58x >>> >>> >>> This is on target. >>> >>> -1- Leica has a great product and a great brand. Folks want them. >>> P&S scale market? >>> No way. But lots of serious amateurs sitting on the sidelines of the >>> Leica shooting >>> experience. >>> >>> -2- The product price is just too high. Too high for what? Too high >>> for contemporary >>> customer expectations of camera and lens prices. >>> >>> -3- If Leica can make a good product at a lower price, their >>> customer base will >>> expand. They have the potential to move more product. What are those >>> prices? Don't >>> know, needs research. Maybe a $1.5K new body. $750 - $1.5K >>> lenses. At >>> customer-perceived reasonable (but still premium) prices, Leica will >>> move bodies and >>> glass. >>> >>> -4- Zeiss will be hitting roughly the right price point IMHO. If >>> Zeiss can show their >>> commitment to the product line, that they're in it for the long >>> haul, that they'll deliver >>> upgraded product over time - then Zeiss will capture many folks >>> waiting on the >>> sidelines for an affordable RF experience. >>> >>> -5- Leica's job is to deliver truly quality product at a lower >>> price. They can deliver >>> quality without virtually hand manufacturing the things in >>> Portugal/Germany. They need >>> to do whatever it takes. >>> >>> -6- Leica needs to deliver a more than credible RF, exchangable lens >>> digital camera. >>> Should be M mount, but IMHO, doesn't have to be (I'd like it to >>> be). A $5K digital >>> M body will be DOA. The point of a digital body is to catch up, >>> grow the customer >>> base and start moving more glass. >>> >>> -7- Again, Leica has a great product and brand. There is demand. But >>> the >>> >>> prices are >>> skyrocketing out of control, and Leica reeks of imminent morbidity. >>> -8- I love Leica stuff. I've been buying near mint chrome M6TTL's and >>> used recent lenses for reasonable prices and feeling somewhat guilty >>> for >>> not buying new >>> gear from Leica/dealers. Leica needs to bring Leica buyers back >>> into a relationship >>> with the company. >>> >>> Scott >>> >>> >>> Feli wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> You're right. They need to do something and when it comes to glass >>>> they are king. >>>> If they could manage to make their lenses in Canon mount with >>>> >>> >>> >>> automatic >>> >>> >>>> stop down metering, they would sell a bundle. But I doubt that >>>> their pride would allow them >>>> to do so. >>>> >>>> The other problem i see is that Leica gear is simply too expensive. I >>>> have friends who >>>> were interested in buying an M, but when they saw the price tag >>>> they dropped the idea. >>>> But I am not sure how to solve that. Move production out of Germany? >>>> >>>> Whatever they do, they need a digital M camera asap and it needs to be >>>> a killer piece of gear. Full frame, minimum of 12MP, weather >>>> sealed, aimed at professionals.. I don't care of it doesn't use >>>> all, or none of the current lenses. Canon screwed everyone when >>>> they changed mounts >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> and after the riots died down everything was ok. People who make a >>>> living with their gear will drop the money on it if it's the right >>>> tool for the job at hand. I've talked to several production >>>> photographers, and almost all of them would buy one, because they need >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> a compact, quiet camera, with fast lenses that works well in the dark. >>>> >>>> I also think they should team up with someone and license the guts of >>>> a good 8MP >>>> SLR and produce it with an R-mount. Make two models, one for $1500 and >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> a sturdier one for more. >>>> >>>> I think Hasselblad is being a lot smarter about the future than Leica >>>> and if they don't do something soon they are going to be finished. But >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> I would also bet that at that point ,they get bought by a big Japanese >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> firm... >>>> >>>> >>>> feli >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 21, 2005, at 9:59 AM, B. D. Colen wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Ah, but wouldn't Leica be ahead of the game working out a deal >>>>> with Canon, where by Canon would get some sort of licensing fee >>>>> for each lens sold in a working Canon mount? >>>>> >>>>> The point is that Leica needs to do SOMETHING if it's going to >>>>> survive. Producing an extremely expensive digital backs for an R line >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> that is already losing money - as wonderful as the cameras may be >>>>> - isn't going to be the thing that saves Leica. And, as Frank >>>>> pointed out, Leica's reputation lays with it's glass. There has to >>>>> be a way for them to capitalize on that. >>>>> >>>>> Why don't they start advertising the glass for use with adapters >>>>> on Canon EOS bodies? Use photos and endorsements from life-long >>>>> Leica shooters... >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________________ >>>> feli2@earthlink.net 2 + 2 = 4 >>>> www.elanphotos.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Leica Users Group. >>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Leica Users Group. >>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Leica Users Group. >>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information