Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2005/08/02

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Subject: [Leica] Piercings and Tatoos
From: bdcolen at comcast.net (B. D. Colen)
Date: Tue Aug 2 12:24:57 2005

With all due respect, Jayanand, it's not a question of "liberal European
thinking;" it's a question of whether one views women and men as equals, or
whether one views women as chattel, honored chattel in some societies, but
chattel none the less.

B. D.


On 8/2/05 9:21 AM, "Jayanand Govindaraj" <jgovindaraj@eth.net> wrote:

> You equate an arranged marriage with female circumcision? Wow! Liberal
> European thinking!!
> Cheers
> Jayanand Govindaraj
> Chennai, India
> (who has been happily married for 27 years through an arranged marriage, 
> and
> has had no problem with it)
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nathan Wajsman" <nathan.wajsman@planet.nl>
> To: "Leica Users Group" <lug@leica-users.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 10:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [Leica] Piercings and Tatoos
> 
> 
>> Well, I feel like I understand quite a few different cultures because of
>> my rather nomadic life, the international family I am part of, my Puerto
>> Rican wife etc. I agree with Dennis' sentiment that we should respect the
>> fact that things are done differently in other cultures/religions, but I
>> do not agree that this implies that they are all equally valid,
>> particularly in modern, liberal societies like the US or Europe. An
>> arranged marriage, for me, is beyond the pale in the 21st century, as is,
>> for example, female circumcision--which after all, also is grounded in a
>> strong cultural tradition. In Denmark there have been cases of parents
>> sending their daughters to Somalia to undergo this type of mutilation, and
>> of parents sending their daughters to rural Turkey or Pakistan for an
>> arranged marriage against their will. Both types of activities are
>> illegal, and rightly so.
>> 
>> As someone who has lived most of his life as an immigrant in four
>> different countries, I say that if someone wants to live like that, then
>> they should do so in South Asia or wherever this type of tradition is
>> considered normal. My guiding motto on this type of issue is the wonderful
>> American expression, "shit or get off the pot."
>> 
>> Strong family ties are all well and good, but not if they manifest
>> themselves in coercion or in practices that are unacceptable to the wider
>> society. Some decades ago the Mormons had to accept that polygamy was not
>> acceptable in the United States and they abandoned this tradition (yes, I
>> am aware of the splinter groups that still cling to it, but mainstream
>> Mormons do not). As far as I can tell from the Mormon friends and
>> co-workers I had in the US, this has not had any negative impact on their
>> family ties or ability to practice their religion.
>> 
>> BTW, we know several South Asians (as evident from my latest PAWs), many
>> Muslims among them, who all live in thoroughly modern, voluntary
>> marriages, in many cases to "infidels."
>> 
>> Nathan
>> 
>> Dennis Painter wrote:
>> 
>>> This is a very interesting set of photos. One certainly needs to know a
>>> bit of what's going on here to understand them. I am glad that Tina is
>>> working on this project as I doubt anyone could do better than her.
>>> Despite that I am not sure photographs will lead to greater
>>> understanding.
>>> 
>>> Much has been said of and about different cultures and cultural
>>> differences.  Here are my beliefs.
>>> 
>>> It's almost impossible to truly understand another culture. Perhaps if
>>> you know all the history, can read the language, and live within that
>>> culture for years, then, you might really understand.
>>> 
>>> If you apply your standards, your culture, against another you are lost
>>> to understanding.
>>> 
>>> The best way of "understanding" is to accept that what they believe and
>>> do is correct to their way of life and culture. Respect their culture.
>>> This helps greatly to avoid forming prejudice in your mind.
>>> 
>>> It's hard for me to put this into words.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Nathan Wajsman
>> Almere, The Netherlands
>> 
>> General photography: http://www.nathanfoto.com
>> Seville photography: http://www.fotosevilla.com
>> Stock photography: http://www.alamy.com/search-results.asp?qt=wajsman
>> http://myloupe.com/home/found_photographer.php?photographer=507
>> Prints for sale: http://www.photodeluge.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
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>> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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Replies: Reply from ferider at yahoo.com (Der Eiserne Reiter) ([Leica] Piercings and Tatoos)
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In reply to: Message from jgovindaraj at eth.net (Jayanand Govindaraj) ([Leica] Piercings and Tatoos)