Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2006/02/01

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Subject: [Leica] RE: LUG Digest, Vol 31, Issue 221
From: bdcolen at comcast.net (B. D. Colen)
Date: Wed Feb 1 12:26:12 2006

Awwwww, poor, poor Exxon. They had to shut down that facility after
investing $1.5 billion, and they only ended up with more revenue this year
than the GDP of Saudi Arabia - and a profit of over $10 billion. ;-)


On 2/1/06 3:00 PM, "Seth Rosner" <sethrosner@nycap.rr.com> wrote:

> God I feel better already.
> 
> Seriously thanks, Douglas. It is always enlightening to read someone who
> truly knows what he is writing about.
> 
> On disposing of nukular waste,  ;-)   I've heard of shooting the moon 
> before
> but never shooting the sun.
> 
> Canada is doing it with tar sands and there are billions of barrels in
> Colorado's oil shale. Green won't let producers go there. Did not Exxon
> close down its oil shale facility after investing $1 1/2 billion in it?
> 
> S.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Douglas Sharp" <douglas.sharp@gmx.de>
> To: "Leica Users Group" <lug@leica-users.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 2:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Leica] RE: LUG Digest, Vol 31, Issue 221
> 
> 
>> The technologiy is clean enough, and close to being as safe as it can be -
>> the problem is still nuclear waste. As a production and exploration
>> geophysicist I've worked on nuclear waste storage sites, working and
>> prospective, in Germany, Belgium, Switzerland and a few other places. For
>> the long-term storage of nuclear waste there is NO really safe solution,
>> that stuff stays highly radioactive on a geological time scale.
>> Salt dome caverns  are no good - salt moves and migrates so you've never
>> got a constant thickness shielding your waste, the Swiss solution of
>> putting it in caverns blasted out of native impervious (supposedly) rocks
>> is better but radiactive gases (Radon for example) always manage to find a
>> way to the surface. The Belgian method of hiding it under a thin layer of
>> impervious clay isn't a long term solution either.
>> So what do we do with it?  Shooting it into the sun is the only real way
>> of getting rid of it, there's been enough dropped into the sea and more
>> than enough buried already, these "fly-dumps" will take their revenge on
>> the environment one of theses days.
>> You say that  present day technologies are safe, I agree - problem is,
>> even the most recent reactors just haven't been built with these new
>> technologies, Temsvar in the Czech Republic is one of the newest NPSs
>> and is just not safe, the same applies to the latest French reactors,
>> Germany's reactors have been plagued with problems and Sellafield in the
>> UK is a dirty word already. No need to mention reactors in the former
>> soviet block countries.......
>> 
>> Fusion power is pie-in-the-sky (unless the billions for defence are
>> re-channeled), you might just as well try a further development of
>> Nikolaus Tesla's idea by building orbiting spaceborne solar power stations
>> transmitting power as high energy microwave frequencies back to earth,
>> though I dread to think what would happen if a plane flew through one of
>> those tight banded transmissions.
>> The only clean options are  terrestrial solar energy farms, wind and tidal
>> energy and geothermal energy - these are the only future I can see in
>> power production.
>> 
>> Some of the latest developments reek of science fiction but could be
>> effective - half mile high chimneys set up in desert regions, the
>> temperature differential between ground level and the top creates winds of
>> incredible velocities, all you have to do is put aturbine in the way of
>> it. Using waste energy (off peak production is always too high and just
>> gets wasted) from conventional power stations to pump water into high
>> level reservoirs
>> to run hydroelectric turbines at peak demand times, storing energy as
>> compressed air in salt domes is another option, use it to supply the
>> energy needed to get gas turbines running.
>> 
>> None of these, however give us any kind of solution for automotive
>> transport - when the oil runs out we're going to back with sailing ships
>> and steam engines again, individual or personal transportation will be the
>> rich man's game.
>> 
>> In spite of the doomy-gloomy diatribe above, the figures quoted for how
>> long our hydrocarbons will last are always wrong, they're based on proven
>> reserves. There are billions and billions of barrels of oil (and cubic
>> meters of gas) in untried or uneconomical reservoirs, tar sands, hydrates,
>> deep reservoirs and the like, and so far only about  8% of the globe has
>> even been explored for energy reserves. By the time they run out the
>> planet will be a ball of ice anyway.
>> Douglas
>> 
>> Mattheis, William G CIV wrote:
>> 
>>> On 30 Jan Adam Bridge wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> "I don't believe I'll see even scientific break-even in fusion plant in
>>> my life-time let alone a full-scale fusion plant. I'm still a friend
>>> of fission plants - the new technologies are vastly safer than designs
>>> of 30-40 years ago - but I think nuclear in the United States is dead.
>>> People are afraid of anything technical and the anti-nuclear forces
>>> shout LOUDLY even if they are shouting FUD most of the time (at best.)"
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Adam you may well be correct about fusion, but we have made enormous
>>> strides in my short lifetime so I continue to beleive.  I agree about
>>> fission power.  It is clear, the required resources are abundant and 
>>> safe.
>>> New reprocessing technologies not only make this resource more valuable,
>>> but also help deal with the spent fuel issues.  Unfortunately, I also
>>> agree with your sense of difficulty in winning public acceptance.  I 
>>> guess
>>> the huge volumes of acid rain and other pollutants from coal fired power
>>> plants are less frightening than nuclear issue, but they should not be.
>>> 
>>> I think small turbines in cars would make a nice hybrid without any
>>> superconductor requirements.  Use the turbine to drive a generator to
>>> power electric drive with high efficiency batteries as a "buffer" between
>>> the generator and electric drive.  Batteries provide levels of current
>>> required for acceleration and other high demand situations [steep grades,
>>> etc.] and direct drive from generator for sustaining velocity as when
>>> cruising the freeway at speed.
>>> 
>>> Anyway, great exchanging thoughts.  I think that in our capitalist
>>> economy, dollars will dictate the power source we will use in the future,
>>> i.e., the cheapest alternative will prevail.  Now, if we find a way to
>>> charge the full cost of systems to include cleaning up environmental
>>> impact, then the "cheapest alternative" may not be hydorcarbon based.
>>> 
>>> Bill
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
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>> 
> 
> 
> 
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In reply to: Message from sethrosner at nycap.rr.com (Seth Rosner) ([Leica] RE: LUG Digest, Vol 31, Issue 221)