[Leica] M8: "I think it's going to be all right" - transposed to Canon, Nikon, etc. etc.

[firkin at ncable.net.au (Alastair Firkin)]

On 19/11/2006, at 2:07, B. D. Colen wrote:

> So it's "going to be alright."
> People will "work through the problems."
> People will make the camera work by putting IR filters on their  
> lenses.

Along with "I'm sending it back heartbroken after years of  
anticipation" and "cancelled till fixed" etc

>
> This leaves me wondering several things:
> 1. How do people feel about the fact that Leica shipped the M8  
> knowing that
> the camera was defective, and can not accurately record colors under
> certain, common situations because of the way it is designed?

I think it was a stupid decision, especially if they could have sent  
it out with a "patch". How much they understood about the issue I'm  
not sure. There are a lot of compromises made in the production of a  
new product. Some manufacturers would have changed the mount to make  
lens design more suited to the digital camera, (I hated Minolta for  
doing that when autofocus came along and I'm sure Canon owners were  
not delighted at that time, but doing the opposite hurt Nikon in the  
end), but I applaud the efforts they have made to make the M mount  
and all those lenses "live" on in the digital age NOT an easy task

>
> 2. How do people feel about the fact that certain reviewers, upon  
> whom they
> depend - and I am NOT referring to any members of this list - were  
> aware of
> the defect and, at the request of the company, withheld mention of  
> it in
> their rave reviews?

This would seem to confirm what many of us paranoid people already  
believe, and I'm sure you are one person who does NOT believe  
everything you read?

>
> 3. How do people feel about the fact that Leica is not recalling  
> the cameras
> to make a real fix, but instead will require owners to purchase  
> filters, at
> their own expense, to "fix" the problem? (And remember, if you have  
> a number
> of lenses, you undoubtedly require a number of filter sizes, unless  
> you're
> going to screw around with adapters, which means you could easily  
> be adding
> $1000 to the cost of the camera.)

We will have to wait and see about his. Already software adjustments  
are being made, and it may be a firmware update, which would not be  
arduous. I still believe the company should be congratulated on the  
production of the camera, and for a small company to make such a leap  
of faith does deserve some credit: I don't expect they have buckets  
of cash available to splash about updating everyone's lenses

>
> 4. What would the people on this list be saying if Canon, Nikon,  
> Olympus,
> Fuji, etc., did something like this? Would they be saying, 'no big  
> deal.
> It's a great camera and all it takes is a little working through the
> problems, or would they be saying, 'what do you expect of those big  
> Japanese
> companies with their Chinese manufactured, mass-produced crap?  
> Thank God
> Leica doesn't do things like that!'

ALL companies now do this: I have had it on CEO level advise that  
almost NO goods are subject to quality control ANYWHERE. They are  
sent out KNOWING that about 20 - 30% have defects because it has been  
shown that the customers will USUALLY accept the defective goods  
anyway. One crate of tricycles went out with only 2 wheels and only  
40% were returned - go figure, but with this incentive, the  
beancounters said let the customer do the quality control, and take  
back anything which doesn't work WITHOUT QUESTION. I have a Toshiba  
top of the range set top box for my digital TV. It works, but  
occasionally throws a wobble. I've had it over 6 months, I can't  
prove it throws these wobbles, because they are intermittent, BUT  
when I finally complained, they gave me my money back, no questions,  
and sold me a new different brand which was better and cheaper. I  
asked if they were losing money and they said no, the parent company  
was aware units had "bugs" and would just refund them. I assume its  
cheaper than recalling the unit and many people (and I was almost one  
of them) would get beyond the 12 month mark without "getting around"  
to complaining. Olympus sold me a dud E 500 and just fixed it. If it  
fails again I just get a new one. QUALITY CONTROL IS DEAD: we have to  
do it ourselves.

>
> 5. What happened to the theory - espoused in what I'd guess have been
> literally thousands of posts over the years, that it's heretical to  
> invest
> in Leica glass to then turn around and slap another piece of glass  
> - even if
> made by Leica - in front of the lens?

True, and I'm not planning on doing it. BUT I cannot make an IR image  
without a red filter on the lens, I cannot polarize light without  
either. These are effects I use, and I don't expect to have to buy a  
new lens for each application. GB uses filters all the time in b'w  
and I'm trying to learn from him. This seems to be an effect in the  
experience I have so far. The colours are spectacular in most  
situations. IFFF you want to use low light high ISO and expect to  
find your subjects wearing black you will need to consider an IR  
filter or using a different colour profile. NO BIG DEAL iffff that is  
how it works. NO DIFFERENT to saying I think I will make an IR image  
of this scene etc

>
> And before you say 'there you go again, damning the camera you  
> haven't even
> held, let alone seen,' take a deep breath, and recall that even  
> corporate
> Leica is acknowledging the problems with the camera; consider that  
> there
> have now been any number of purchasers and even reviewers raising the
> quality question about the camera. And also keep in mind that if  
> one has
> just plunked down $4800 dollars for a camera, when raising that  
> $4800 may
> have required selling one's beloved film Ms, one is likely to do one's
> damndest to avoid 'seeing' color casts and other problems.
>
> So forget who's asking these questions - or what my evil motivation  
> may be -
> and consider them; they're not illogical questions.

As you know, I respect what you are saying and I think your  
assessment of R and M shortfalls are all well founded, BUT it is not  
the only way to look at the world. Canon are the benchmark in digital  
cameras today, BUT this does not mean that everyone else should pack  
up and go home: I pray they don't. I'm worried about the Olympus 4/3  
system BECAUSE they did not produce a pro camera at photokina this  
year. People like me were crying out for it and the E1 is just not up  
to scratch as a top of the line model. I did not buy Canon for a lot  
of reasons, BUT the one which led me to Olympus over Canon was not  
cost, it was the dust cleaning sensor: DUST on every image would  
drive me insane and did others on this group, but Canon released  
their cameras in the full knowledge that this "fault" existed and  
with NO intention of paying for the cleansing even within the  
warranty period.

No, I think you are right, the company is not acting like the Leica  
of old, I think they are facing up to reality in the 21st century and  
I hope they muddle through and give us all the variety and  
competition we need in the market place to keep others on their toes.


Cheers

Alastair