Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2009/11/01
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]I was confused by Frank's "both eyes open" thing too. Even with the M3, doing that gave me a headache. 1.0x is 1.0x - and everything else is a migraine. Maybe Geoff and Frank could settle their extreme differences in an extreme cage match - a cage made of brass with a black paint finish?! Dante On Nov 1, 2009, at 10:12 PM, <tedgrant at shaw.ca> <tedgrant at shaw.ca> wrote: >>>>> Both eyes open..... remember what is was like to not get a >> headache if you were following the action with your M3, with both >> eyes..... >> so that you could see the action come into your frame? <<<<<<<< > > Well you see I look at this comment as a one eyed photographer, left > eye to be worse with an M camera of any kind! And I see it as a > crock of cow dung! Sure I know all the stories about keeping two > eyes open and all that stuff! But what the hell when only one works, > who cares??? You just do your thing with out thought, capture great > images and move on! > > Yep and I've been knocked on my ass big time on the side lines by > three North Amercian defensive fooftball players and the guy with > the ball! Did I go crying and carrying on about the Leica and > viewfinder and all this whining? Nope! You pick yourself up and get > doing what the hell you are supposed to be doing..... A > photograopher covering a football game! Get a Life and stop all the > caterwhaling about Leica! > > They don't listen to this group quite simply because what we are > seeing right now! All this whining Bull sh....... t! > > If one is so vehemently anti-Leica for heavan sake buy something > else and get on with your photo taking life! And in case anyone > asks .... no I certainly do not work for Leica, but I do praise to > the heavens the quality of the equipment they supply! > > Dr. ted > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dante Stella" <dstella1 at > ameritech.net > > > To: "Leica Users Group" <lug at leica-users.org> > Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 5:20 PM > Subject: Re: [Leica] the ultimate digest Leica criticism thread > > >> Do you work for Leica? >> >> Dante >> >> On Nov 1, 2009, at 8:05 PM, Geoff Hopkinson wrote: >> >>> Frank I think fair to say that you have been quite prominent >>> expressing your >>> opinions here on several Leica issues recently? Also fair to say >>> that some >>> others think differently? I put several of your posts together here >>> with >>> nothing edited and I offer my responses below each. >>> ..................................... >>> This is exactly what I was talking about.... make noise for what you >>> want....otherwise the manufacturer will have no idea that there is a >>> demand....I signed up... and if the R10 is priced within my means, I >>> am in >>> for 2 of them.....Frank Filippone >>> ...................................... >>> *From my visit to Solms in June. The LUG does not have a high >>> profile in >>> Solms. They do look at other internet forums, with the (exclusively >>> Leica >>> content) L Camera Forum being the most prominent. Making noise here >>> is not a >>> very effective way of telling Leica your opinions. >>> When the R10 cancellation was announced in June, Stefan Daniel >>> estimated that a body would have cost 6,000 to 7,000 Euro. His >>> recent video >>> interview includes confirmation that they still don't believe the >>> existing R >>> lens owner pool is enough to make an R10 viable and Leica will not >>> make a >>> conventional dSLR.* >>> *..............................................* >>> Hey, if you don't speak your mind, the status quo continues.... and >>> God knows, our beloved M8 cameras will be upgradeable >>> forever......Right! >>> Daniels has the company line to speak and repeat. He does so well. >>> Yes, the M8/M9 are .68 VF cameras. Does that make it a) right, b) >>> customer driven, c) the only choice Leica had d) my or your choice? >>> I don't >>> think there is history that says.. they could have, customers had no >>> say, >>> not my choice or preference. YMMV. They did not do a higher mag VF >>> for some >>> reason.. what that real reason is, is Leica's secret..... and they >>> ain;t >>> telling us. What I get upset at is the incessant statement that it >>> can not >>> be done. Or that there is no one that wants a higher mag VF.,... I >>> do. I >>> liked my M3 finder ... .91 and all that. Sure, it was useless if >>> you had a >>> 35mm lens on ( without eyes) but it was a wonderful shoot with a >>> 50......Both eyes open..... remember what is was like to not get a >>> headache >>> if you were following the action with your M3, with both eyes..... >>> so that >>> you could see the action come into your frame? A .55, so I can see >>> the 28 >>> frames clearly with glasses, and a .42, so I can see the 21 frames >>> clearly >>> with glasses. I like the current M8/9 for 35's and above, but it's a >>> bit too >>> tight for the 35 and almost right for the 50. Maybe a 0.8. But right >>> now, if >>> I could have one body that showed me 21mm framelines, visible with >>> glasses >>> and another body that had the current framelines I'd be delighted. >>> Sure it >>> can be done. They already did it... the .85 and .58 M6TTL cameras >>> are >>> examples. Maybe you don't like the choices, maybe like me, the M6 >>> 28 finder >>> is not visible with glasses in a .72 body ( not easily, at least), >>> maybe >>> they did it for time to market, stubborn Germanic marketing >>> theories, or >>> otherwise. But don't blindly say it can't be done or that they will >>> not do >>> it.....Market demand focuses efforts on the "impossible" and or >>> stubbornly refused.....and the LUG is one way to getting the word to >>> the >>> uppers at Leica that there is a marketing need that needs >>> addressing..... A >>> higher Mag Digi-M would pump demand for the longer lenses, like >>> the135 >>> APO Telyt, make focusing easier and more accurate for the Nocti and >>> Summilux >>> 50 and 75, and Summicron 75, and 90 lenses, all valid reasons ( the >>> main reason for the .85 M6) for a higher VF mag. If market demand >>> created a >>> White M8, then market demand can create a higher mag M8., M9, or >>> M10. Whatever happens, never lose sight of the power of the consumer >>> to >>> get products they want, onto the shelves.... Speaking of which.. the >>> M9.... >>> No IR filter required, no smaller sensor..all impossible, or so we >>> were >>> told..... Nonsense. Marketing nonsense. Want better low light >>> response than >>> an M8 or M9? Complain, incessantly. It will come... So will my >>> higher mag >>> VF..... Frank Filippone >>> .................................... >>> The gentleman's name is Stefan Daniel, not Daniels. >>> The reasons for a .68 VF in the M8 and M9 are that they use the same >>> VF as >>> the M7 (albeit with a different eyepiece) owing to the greater body >>> thickness. Look through one if you can find one. It is the highest >>> magnification that will allow the 28 framelines to be reasonably >>> visible >>> (without glasses). The same standard for all of the recent film >>> cameras. >>> Remember that the two alternate sets were dropped from standard film >>> camera >>> production some time back, presumably due to insufficient demand. >>> Unless you >>> have some evidence to the contrary? >>> I have the M3 too; the finder was different and even more expensive >>> to make >>> as well. I agree that it is wonderfully clear and useful for the 50, >>> 90 and >>> 135. Since it did not natively support even the 35 frames that >>> magnification >>> was dropped a very long time ago. Leica listening to customer >>> demands. The >>> .85 was meant to be a compromise (and the .58 at the other end). If >>> those >>> versions were sufficiently in demand, why did Leica drop them? That >>> 135 is >>> by all reports a superb lens but it evidently does not sell in >>> comparable >>> quantities to the wider types. I just don't see any case for >>> expecting that >>> Leica might make any variations on the M9 design anytime soon since >>> clearly >>> they are working as hard as possible on just trying to meet the >>> existing >>> initial demand. >>> ................................... >>> I would think of my criticism as both constructive and market >>> driven.... not >>> a bad combination to listen to, if I were Leica...... Companies tend >>> to >>> think that they know what is best. The problem is that >>> sometimes they get tunnel vision or desperately believe their own >>> marketing >>> hype. What they need to do is to listen to customers, objectively >>> evaluate >>> the criticism, and take action. A hard but necessary corporate >>> survival >>> reality. If I can be a voice of the user, if only 1 user, and make >>> what are >>> constructive criticisms, I will. And make no apologies for it. Frank >>> Filippone >>> ................................. >>> Frank, Leica already has a CEO and business plan ;-) Fair to say >>> that some >>> customers or potential customers may also tend to think that they >>> know best, >>> sometimes get tunnel vision etc?? >>> ................................. >>> What other major development can save their company? The S2? The >>> M9 >>> already exists, I was referring to new camera product development. >>> If I go >>> back just a few months, then my recommended priority was #1 FF M8, >>> #2 a >>> Digi FF SLR, #3 new optics to go with the DigiR. Deep 6 the S2, >>> continue >>> with the rebranded products to bring in some short term profits. >>> Followed by product tweaks. R Bodies: Poor seller? The R8, >>> introduced in >>> 1996, was one of the last high end SLR Film cameras. It was >>> hideously >>> behind in features compared to Nikon and Canon. But it did take R >>> glass. >>> By 1999, the R8 and R9 was selling against the Digi-SLR rebellion >>> ( Nikon D1 >>> introduced in 1999). The R9 was never going to be a big winner, >>> when >>> everyone was buying digital. If it had been a Digi camera, it might >>> have >>> been Leica's best seller! Think of all the R fans out there that >>> would beat >>> down the doors to use their R glass with a Digi R and not gone Canon >>> or >>> Nikon..I am already on record.. the S2 "stole" resources from the >>> R10, and >>> for that reason alone it should have been cancelled. Leica does not >>> make the >>> X1. It is a financial strategy. As it does not >>> steal a large amount of resources from the R+D team, I am neutral on >>> its >>> existence. Anyone that does not like the X1 because of its features >>> ( or >>> whatever reason you wish to put here) is going out and buying a >>> $13-20K of >>> M9 stuff? I doubt they buyers are in the same camp. 2 different >>> markets, >>> with little to no overlap. >>> .......................... >>> See response above ;-) >>> Yes obviously Leica Camera AG believes that the S2 will allow them >>> to >>> compete in a particular (different) market segment. They do not >>> believe that >>> they can compete in the 'shark pool' of dSLRs. >>> Leica considered the "digital CL' concept as a more affordable M >>> entry but >>> assessed that it would be competing with both the M8/9 and the >>> used M8 >>> market. That last is their assessmnt of the best entry point for >>> people not >>> prepared/able to pay the M8/9 new prices. >>> ......................... >>> I've read that Nikon is making the camera, I also heard >>> Panasonic.... but >>> that may or may not be correct. They are all rumors.. The >>> differeing >>> question is... do you really believe Leica is building a $2K camera >>> with >>> lens and 12MP sensor? Themselves? In Germany/Portugal/EU? Has >>> anyone >>> visiting the Leica factory seen the X1 being manufactured there? >>> We have >>> videos and personal tales of the M9 being made in Germany. But the >>> X1? >>> NADA. The S2 uses resources. My opinion is that the focus should >>> have been >>> on the Digi-R. So, my comment that the S2 stole resources from the >>> Digi-R. >>> Did they start/stop/ever think about a Digi-R? Maybe, but if they >>> had >>> followed what I believe is a #1 priority, the Digi-R, the resources >>> were >>> misdirected to the S2. >>> As a film camera, they were way behind the 8 ball.... features >>> lacking all >>> over the place. But optics? #1. The market for a digital SLR >>> something that >>> takes R lenses and uses the full AE, etc, would be quite robust..... >>> the >>> market for another high end MF DIgi camera, in a field of entrenched >>> manufacturers, with no installed base of lenses available to set >>> the stage >>> (see the Hasselblad V Line), is significantly smaller, and in my >>> opinion, >>> may really not exist beyond the really rich amateur. And thus my >>> choice for >>> R+D expenditures.... >>> Digi-R. >>> Ok.. I'll say it more bluntly.... You have proof otherwise? It is >>> not a >>> debate over who is building the X1... If I thought Leica was, I >>> would be all >>> over their case. Get back on the subject... the Digi-R. >>> ........................ >>> Leica has carefully stated that the X1 will be assembled in Germany. >>> Clearly >>> not every component will be made there. The same situation to a >>> greater or >>> lesser extent as the M9 for example. I thought that the X1 sensor >>> origin >>> was pretty well known but I haven't seen it officially in print so I >>> won't >>> repeat it again here. Since its not even in production yet and only >>> exists >>> as a few prototypes, maybe wait until they actually produce some and >>> see >>> what is shown? >>> >>> Cheers >>> Geoff >>> The new LEICA M9 -Passion for perfect pictures. >>> http://www.m.leica-camera.com >>> >>> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/gh/ >>> http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Leica Users Group. >>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.423 / Virus Database: 270.14.44/2475 - Release Date: > 11/01/09 19:39:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information