Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2013/07/04
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]Barney, My classes are about interpreting literature. I'm going to use this in my lessons for next year on how people use emotional appeals, denials that truth exists, irrelevant arguments, boasting of past accomplishments, and fake moral outrage (including appeals to religion/God) in written and spoken communication to manipulate people when the facts are not on their side. Thanks! -- Chris Crawford Fine Art Photography Fort Wayne, Indiana 260-437-8990 http://www.chriscrawfordphoto.com My portfolio http://www.facebook.com/pages/Christopher-Crawford/48229272798 Become a fan on Facebook On 7/2/13 5:23 PM, "Barney Quinn" <bjq1 at mac.com> wrote: > >No. Tina made it because she is a superb photographer. It has nothing to >do with when she started or what equipment she started with. I have read >what you have written. I wonder if you have read, or understood, a word I >have sent to you. My issue with your emails is not your description of >the photographic market place. I have made no comment on that. Nor do I >intend to. My issue is the rude and arrogant manner in which you have >treated a respected member of this group. I very much think that Tina's >experience is relevant to the lives of other, especially younger >photographers. Experience is always relevant. > >You assert that you will not apologize for telling the truth to anyone. >That, of course, begs some serious questions in epistemology, namely what >is truth, what is true, and how do you know it is true? Telling what you >believe to be the truth in a way that is hurtful and destructive is not >honesty, it is stupidity because it dilutes your ability to >communicate.You might try it. You may find you have a lot easier time >getting your points across. > >Your story about your student and telling time troubled me for two >reasons. You humiliated that person in front of his or her peers. You >probably caused that person significant pain. We are all children of God. >People deserve to be respected on that basis alone. To with hold respect >in the manner you did is not a good thing to do, and it resonates with >the way you have treated Tina. "I am doing it for your own good" is one >of the oldest and most feeble rationalizations in the books. The fact >that you bullied the student into doing what you wanted doesn't make how >you acted proper. The assertion that I am telling the truth and I will >never apologize for that is also a very weak defense. > >I also experienced the story as arrogant and belittling. If I learn how >to tell time you will respect me. That's condescending. I was one of the >forty people who founded National Public Radio. I have produced and >directed All things Considered, I was one of the leaders of the team who >got Morning Edition on the Air, and I headed the documentary production >unit for a decade. I assure you, I know how to read a clock, a stopwatch >and I know how to tell time. > >Barney? > > > >E-Mail: bjq1 at mac.com >Home: (301) 654-0938 >Cell: (301) 775-1386 > > >On Jul 02, 2013, at 04:06 PM, Chris Crawford ><chris at chriscrawfordphoto.com> wrote: > >> Tina made it because she started out a very long time ago. She has >>stated >> that she invested the money she made in better times in the past and >>used >> that to buy her digital Leicas today. Nothing wrong with that, but that >> means her experience is not relevant to young ones just starting out. >>New >> photojournalists today do not make the money to buy that stuff. Sorry to >> upset you with facts, but that's reality. What I said was true, and will >> never apologize for telling the truth to anyone. >> >> Not one person who has complained about what I said has taken issue with >> the facts of what I said, except you. The others knew I was right, but >> didn't like those facts, so they attacked the way I said it. I stand by >> every word I have written. >> >> This reminds me of one time a student showed up for class late for the >>5th >> day in a row. I told him he needed to learn to tell time, which made him >> mad. "You're disrespecting me!" I told him to start coming to class on >> time, and I'll respect him, which made the rest of the class break out >>in >> laughter. The student started coming to class on time after that. >> >> 99% of the problem with today's world is people value feelings over >>facts >> and rationality. >> >> -- >> Chris Crawford >> Fine Art Photography >> Fort Wayne, Indiana >> 260-437-8990 >> >> http://www.chriscrawfordphoto.com My portfolio >> >> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Christopher-Crawford/48229272798 >> Become a fan on Facebook >> >> >> >> On 7/2/13 3:51 PM, "Barney Quinn" <bjq1 at mac.com> wrote: >> >> > >> >This is in no sense an improvement. You have, in my view, made things >> >worse. The face that your have been abused in your life, or the fact >>that >> >people have said hard things to you in no way, under no circumstances >> >provides you with any reasonable justification for abusing or being >>angry >> >with any other human being. Two wrongs to not make a right. That is a >> >totally bankrupt moral position. Quite the contrary. Having been hurt >>it >> >should motivate you to take care not to injure others. >> > >> >What you said to Tina was hurtful. Rewording it so that it says parent, >> >partner, boy friend, girlfriend, aunt, uncle, or whomever in no way >>makes >> >the remark acceptable because the core thrust of your comment is that >> >Tina can't make it on her own. That is simply not true. She did. I have >> >enormous respect for her as a person and as a photographer. I do not >> >comment on it all that often, but I very much enjoy her pictures. I >> >always make it a point to look at them. >> > >> >The prime tenant of being in a hole, which is where you are, is to stop >> >digging. Wouldn't it be better all around if you put down your shovel, >> >stopped digging, admitted you crossed a line you would have been better >> >advised not to cross, apologize, and then got on with your photography. >> > >> >Perhaps you might consider taking the advice you gave Tina. What is it >> >about this discussion which has such an emotional hold on you?? >> > >> >Banrey >> > >> > >> >E-Mail: bjq1 at mac.com >> >Home: (301) 654-0938 >> >Cell: (301) 775-1386 >> > >> > >> >On Jul 02, 2013, at 02:46 PM, Chris Crawford >> ><chris at chriscrawfordphoto.com> wrote: >> > >> >> Tina, what I said about your husband having to buy you gear wasn't >>meant >> >> to be sexist. If you were not married, I'd have said your parents >>would >> >> have to do it, and if you were a man I'd say wife or parents >>depending >> >>on >> >> if you were married. Someone with money would have to buy you the >>gear >> >>you >> >> use if you were starting your career now because as a professional >> >> photographer, you would absolutely not earn enough yourself to do it. >> >>As I >> >> said in my original post, that is not a negative comment on the >>worth of >> >> your photographs, it is simply the economic reality in today's world >> >>where >> >> photojournalists are so poorly paid. As I said in my original post, I >> >>make >> >> more as a first year high school teacher than fulltime >>photojournalists >> >>I >> >> know who have 20-30 yrs experience! >> >> >> >> The kids at my school caused two of the older teachers to break down >> >> crying in their classrooms last year, and both quit teaching >>afterward. >> >>I >> >> had students say some shocking and horrible things to me when I first >> >> started but I just laughed it off. Once the kids realized that I >>wasn't >> >> going to get all emotional and lose my cool, they started to respect >>me >> >> and by the end of the school year they had come to like me. >> >> >> >> My point is that you shouldn't let yourself get too emotional about >>your >> >> gear or about what people say on the internet. Leica is not a member >>of >> >> your family, it is not a friend, and it is not God. It is a business, >> >>and >> >> like all businesses, it exists to make money, not to care about you >>or >> >> your photography. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Crawford >> >> Fine Art Photography >> >> Fort Wayne, Indiana >> >> 260-437-8990 >> >> >> >> http://www.chriscrawfordphoto.com My portfolio >> >> >> >> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Christopher-Crawford/48229272798 >> >> Become a fan on Facebook >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 7/2/13 1:46 PM, "Tina Manley" <images at comporium.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> >Thank you, Lluis. Your opinion means a lot to me. Being "just" a >>woman. >> >> >when I get emotional or angry, I cry. It's hard to explain to Tom >>why I >> >> >have been sitting at the computer all morning crying. I wrote the >> >>history >> >> >of my business to justify to myself and to him that I don't need to >> >> >excuses >> >> >or justifications or explanations ;-) ! I'm going to spend the >> >>afternoon >> >> >wallpapering and dancing! >> >> > >> >> >Tina >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Lluis Ripoll >> >> ><lluisripollquerol at gmail.com>wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> TINA, >> >> >> >> >> >> I had no time to follow the discussion, and neither I wan't >>continue >> >>on >> >> >> it, I have other things where I want employ my time. Just read few >> >>from >> >> >>Ted >> >> >> and you now and I would like just to add two cents. You Tina, you >> >>don't >> >> >> need explain neither justify your work, we know it, and I say once >> >>more >> >> >> congratulations for this. It is not your fault if you have make >> >> >>business, >> >> >> this is the target many of us wanted, it is not your fault if >>Leica >> >>is >> >> >> maybe the best camera system ever made, everyone can do his own >> >>choice, >> >> >>it >> >> >> is not your fault if you have bought or not bought any lens in the >> >> >>latest >> >> >> years, you don't need justify anything, just continue showing and >> >> >>letting >> >> >> us continue enjoy your work. >> >> >> >> >> >> Thank you for all of this, you have been very kind telling us all >> >>these >> >> >> things >> >> >> >> >> >> Saludos desde Barcelona! >> >> >> Lluis >> >> >> >> >> >> El 02/07/2013, a las 17:38, Tina Manley escribi?: >> >> >> >> >> >> > LEICA USERS GROUP - >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I have been a professional photographer since I incorporated my >> >> >>business >> >> >> in >> >> >> > 1980. I have worked really hard to make my business >>self-supporting >> >> >>and >> >> >> it >> >> >> > is. I worked for many years as a teacher until my photography >> >> >>business >> >> >> > began to bring in more money than teaching. I bought my first >>Leica >> >> >>M6 >> >> >> in >> >> >> > 1989 because my old Minolta SRT101 would not hold up to the >>extreme >> >> >> > conditions of my trips throughout the developing world, where >>most >> >>of >> >> >>my >> >> >> > assignments were. I have used Leica M6, M4, M3, M2, M7, M8, M9 >>and >> >>MM >> >> >> > cameras. I have Leica M lenses from the 21 to the 135. All of my >> >> >>Leica >> >> >> > lenses are old. I have not bought a Leica M lens in many years. >>All >> >> >>of >> >> >> my >> >> >> > Leica cameras were bought and paid for with money from my >>business. >> >> >>As >> >> >> > digital cameras have improved, I have upgraded my Leica cameras. >> >>If I >> >> >> had >> >> >> > not had to switch to digital for business reasons, I would >>still be >> >> >>using >> >> >> > my Leica film cameras. None of my purchases were made for >>emotional >> >> >> > reasons. Leicas perform for me. I would not use them if they did >> >> >>not. >> >> >> I >> >> >> > have never had a Leica camera fail that Leica did not repair >> >>quickly, >> >> >> > sending me lenders overnight. I am sorry that the cameras are so >> >> >> expensive >> >> >> > but I do believe you get what you pay for. In my experience, >>Leicas >> >> >>are >> >> >> > worth what I pay for them. I have never used a Fuji camera or an >> >> >> Olympus. >> >> >> > I'm sure they are wonderful. I hated the Canons I used when I >>first >> >> >> > switched to digital. At this stage of my life, I am not >>interested >> >>in >> >> >> > switching systems. I am not interested in using medium format >> >>cameras >> >> >> and >> >> >> > cannot imagine carrying one to some of the places I travel. >>Leicas >> >> >> happen >> >> >> > to be the perfect cameras for me and my work. That's why I'm on >>a >> >> >>Leica >> >> >> > Users Group. If you hate Leicas, perhaps you should be on >>another >> >> >>group! >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Tina >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -- >> >> >> > Tina Manley >> >> >> > http://tina-manley.artistwebsites.com >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > Leica Users Group. >> >> >> > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more >> >>information >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Leica Users Group. >> >> >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more >>information >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >-- >> >> >Tina Manley >> >> >http://tina-manley.artistwebsites.com >> >> > >> >> >_______________________________________________ >> >> >Leica Users Group. >> >> >See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Leica Users Group. >> >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Leica Users Group. >> >See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > >_______________________________________________ >Leica Users Group. >See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information