[Leica] Leica lens quality as a forerunner to another "lens" race.

[don.dory at gmail.com (Don Dory)]

Peter, thank you for the extended comment. My move to Sony was largely a
celebration of your argument.  I made the initial post with the knowledge
that most of the LUG has moved on from M's and even SL's.  However, I did
find what I saw was different while carrying either the M9 or M11.  The
questions presented were could I alter my mindset with the Sony's in hand,
is the purchase of an M11 cost/benefit ratio worth it to me, and last would
the lighter weight of the M package duplicatable in the mirrorless world?

I am still working through this decision tree.  Your pixel peeping analysis
is largely correct; however, sometimes what makes the image is a small part
of the image taken so higher resolution is very helpful.  At the LSI event
we were shown many photographers using Leicas but mostly under relatively
controlled situations.  If I have an assignment or a paid model then the
conditions can be manipulated.  For me, wandering various streets or trails
conditions are rarely controlled whether by access, SWAMBO wanting to be
somewhere else, or just the difficulty in getting to another position
before everything changes.  Hence the desire for more pixels to provide
room to be sloppy if necessary for the Ted Grant oooh look(click, click) at
that moment.

In the Sony world you are looking at 400 gram lenses and up while in the M
world it might be half that.  Your point on focusing accuracy is on point,
many of my M11 shots were off by that much to paraphrase a comedy show from
the 60's.  But software can fix much of that.  I really don't want to put
myself in future years to have to put aside a loved tool because it is too
massive and heavy but there is the cost factor in retirement with
increasing life spans.

What I think I will do is live with the heavy lenses and work very hard on
increasing tolerance for carrying 18kg of gear in a bag.  I can buy a Sigma
28 ART lens for 1/10th the price of a 28 ASPH and have a 1 stop advantage
plus autofocus when speed is important vs hyperfocal distance.  Or, crop
and use the 200gm lighter Sony 24 F1.4.

In the real world, I find that the conversion of Sony R V files to
monochrome is almost but not quite as good as the M11 M.  Everyone needs to
determine for themselves what tradeoffs they find best suited for
themselves and their style or comfort level.

On Mon, May 1, 2023 at 10:30?PM Peter Klein via LUG <lug at leica-users.org>
wrote:

> My love of Leica M cameras started c. 1970, when I discovered that I
> could focus a rangefinder more accurately and easily than an SLR. At
> that time, a used M2 was only a little more expensive than a new Nikon
> F. i bought one. I quickly noticed the better optics. The other stuff,
> the cult, the glorious history of Leica in photojournalism, I learned
> later. That was nice, and it made me feel part of something. But what
> truly mattered was that the camera fit me.
>
> It's now over 50 years later, and many things have changed. Most medium
> to high end lenses are sufficient in optical quality. Autofocus can
> often be more accurate and faster than RF focusing by eye. The change
> from film to digital taught me that there is no such thing as
> perfection. The RFs that we thought were perfect on Kodachrome or
> Panatomic-X were calibrated to a reasonable compromise, which we could
> easily see once we went digital. Focus shift was real. Film grain and
> thickness covered up some optical flaws. But many of these flaws can
> only be seen when we pixel peep. Aside from jerks on Internet photo
> forums, who cares? Pixel peeping is a false god. There is a point (a
> zone, really) of diminishing returns on absolute optical quality.
>
> I too have been to Wetzlar and watched Peter Karbe demonstrate how much
> better the newest ASPH lenses are, zooming into a flower until we could
> see the tiniest structures. It was miraculous and inspiring, and we were
> all in awe. But I also had to ask myself how much all this would help me
> in my mostly handheld photography. And how many thousands of dollars
> would I be willing (or not) to spend, just to push a smidge further into
> that zone of diminishing returns?
>
> I suspect that solving problems like distortion and smearing in the
> corners and edges of the frame are not either-or solutions, but a matter
> of *both* optics and software. Let each craft do what it's best at, such
> that it annoys the photographer as little as possible. That may not be
> the best solution for competing with Japan, but it probably is the best
> photographic solution.
>
> A big problem is Leica's prices. Most pro photographers left them long
> ago. Even most serious amateurs no longer aspire to Leica. Wetzlar just
> smiles, pushes the boundaries further and raises prices again.
>
> In a way, I'm lucky. I bought most of my Leica lenses when they were
> more affordable. I'm happy with my M10-P and original "Henri" Monochrom.
> In some ways I prefer the aesthetics of the classic lenses. A couple of
> my lenses are (heresy!) Voigtlanders, and I like them. So I don't have
> to buy anything else if I don't want to. But that doesn't make me a
> Leica customer. It makes me a Customer Emeritus. I hope there are enough
> doctors, lawyers, dentists and collectors of expensive things to make up
> for folks like me.
>
> --Peter
>
> Don Dory wrote:
>
>  > I had the chance to talk to a high ranking individual within the Leica
>  > organization at breakfast.  The gist was that Leica was proceeding on an
>  > optical solution rather than a software enabled solution. Probably the
>  > better solution as if the information is there software can take it to
> an
>  > even higher level.  However, it puts Leica on a cost effective curve
> that
>  > makes their products even more exclusive: also, it hurts production
> volume
>  > as some of their designs have very high defect rates by Leica standards.
>  > Obviously this drives an even higher price point.
>  >
>  > Last, one of the participants received a survey from Leica with one
>  > question about Japanese production of lenses at a (much) lower price
>  > point.  So, Leica is aware of the pricing problem and is trying to
> work on
>  > it.
>  >
>  > Last, this Leica representative clarified the classic stool of any
> product:
>  > price, size, performance.  You could have any two.  I am currently
> weighing
>  > this as I own several of Sigma's most excellent lenses for the FE mount.
>  > Their performance is magnificent however the average weight is in the
>  > neighborhood of 1.5 kilograms compared to my 35 ASPH Summilux in the
> high
>  > 300 grams.  The Sigma is a better lens but my shoulder and hand don't
>  > appreciate the weight as much as my eyes appreciate the image quality.
>  >
>
>
>
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-- 
Don
don.dory at gmail.com