Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 1997/10/27
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]<HTML> Well Danny, <P>I cannot help but be amused and thankful for your persistent point of view. On one hand, you remind me of the flatlanders (is that the right term?) who still claim the earth is flat as a pancake, regardless of all the evidence to the contrary. On the other hand, I really wish ALL Leica enthusiasts shared your opinions on the desirability of rare items--camera dealers would be a hell of a lot richer. <P>Faced with evidence that all rare Leica is not desirable (a question you demanded the answer you), you dismiss Marc's answer because it was not Leica, and you dismiss my reply because: (Danny's statement) <UL>"Though you've given a couple of examples to prove this point, the fact of the matter is <BR>that these are the exceptional contradictions and not representative of what is, <BR>generally/most commonly, a safe rule. Rarity in Leica is like location is to real estate."</UL> <P>Sorry Danny, I wish you were correct. Rarity is just PART of the equation, the other part being demand which is often a fleeting popularity. Rare alone does not make it. For it to be desirable and valuable to Leica collectors, ready documentation and market value must be established--but that is not enough--they need to be popular too.. <P>a) a few years ago a friend of mine had the ONLY M2 prototype half frame EVER made, out of Leitz Canada. It was hand made by the production manager of the facility, with full documentation. Yet it was not something that collectors could document in their standard reference works. Eventually it was sold at a fraction of the price of an MP, even though it is much rarer than an MP. <P>b) at the moment I am trying to get documentation on a rare Kriegsmarine camera from military experts in Germany. Without that documentation, its just another camera. With that documentation, it should be quite valuable, without it, a rare so what. <P>c) black enamel Leicaflexes are rare, but very hard to sell because of lack of demand. The rarest Leica collector is a Leica SLR collector. the same is true for SL and SL2 MOTs. <P>d) At the moment, M5's are sought after collectibles. Their prices far exceed the M4-2, even though the M4-2 has only half the production of M5's. Popularity has a big effect on price. Only a few years ago the M5's had almost no demand, and low prices. <P>e) Popularity can also make common cameras valuable. By far the most numerous Leica is the M3, yet it is also among the most expensive if truly in LIKE NEW condition. If rarity was all there was to it, prices would be much lower. <P>f) The Gold M4-2's, R3's and R4's are well known and documented, and their value established at least as far as the Leica Price Guide is concerned. Yet they are very difficult to sell for the supposed price because of lack of demand....they simply are not popular cameras. <P>g) Most of the SE M6's and R's also fall into this category. But that is not to say that occasionally a pigeon will come along who will buy these usually hard to move cameras (thank god). That you sold your PAD to a dealer probably only means he had another pigeon waiting for it. It proves nothing about their real market value. Call Don Chatteron, he will also tell you the new instant collectibles are turning out generally have little market demand. But of course, maybe his experience doesn't count either. <P>All of the above goes back to my point that rarity does not prove desirability or value amongst Leica collectors. It goes well beyond that. you went on to write: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> <P>What exceptional 'quality' does a platinum or 50th anniversary M6 have? One of these <BR>celebrates a date in Leica history, but then the "I'm stuck" does that as well. Seems to me <BR>that you're OK with status quo acceptable collectibles editions and 'against' models <BR>without a timeline of acceptability. Pardon the chide but you're speaking like a typical <BR>'play it safe' dealer. <BR> </BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> I was referring to a "quality" investment, the exception to the normal SE marketplace. Leica used to make great cameras which coincidentally became collectible because they were great cameras. Now they try to make instant collectibles to pay the bills because they are no longer competitive in the marketplace. This gets back to Solm's quest of doing anything for the buck commemoratives for naive newbie collectors. With this exchange on the LUG, I: wouldn't be surprised that the boys at Solms are getting ready to make the "M6 Commemorative for Forgotten M6 Commemoratives." Kind of the unknown soldier idea. you wrote that: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> but not one of you cancite any SE Leica that was failure enough to not command some sort of a premium value over a normal version, later in its resale market price. AFAICT, all of them hold their value better, on a percentage basis, than a normal version.</BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> Danny, if they don't sell, they don't "command" anything, and they usually don't sell. Since the SE's are generally hard to sell because of little collector interest, they have make poor investments--turning a liquid investment into an albatross. If its not readily salable, your stuck. The real issue is not whether a SE will command a premium in the used market over a normal version, but HOW MUCH money will the investor lose or gain by buying a SE. Paying a premium for a SE which you will lose money on just doesn't make a lot of sense. Most of the SE, whether you believe it or not, are generally hard to sell...until the seller is lucky enough to find a buyer. (three cheers Leica stockholders) <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>There's plenty of examples in every SB issue for my side of the equation (besides my <BR>personal experience). Where's the solid evidence to back up Marc, Marvin and yours?</BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> Its interesting that you find your own personal experience in this matter useful, but dismiss the experience three people who each have decades of experience in Leica. It reminds me of a Los Angeles DJ who says that " If I don't know it, it didn't happen." <P>Ironically the solid evidence is in front of you in Shutterbug, but you don't realize it. Anyone can advertise in Shutterbug for any price they like. Unfortunately, verrry unfortunately, this certainly don't mean that the advertised prices are the market prices. Neither does it mean that the SE's will actually sell for the advertised price. The are searching for pigeons, that's all. But maybe I'm wrong. Quick, buy them all up before someone else does! You'll make a fortune....their's. <P>Danny, I know that you will probably remain unconvinced. I hope a lot of people agree with you, so those SEs can finally sell and perhaps Leica can survive. But their value and desirability as a wise investment....that's a Leica of a different color. <P>Regards, <P>Stephen Gandy <BR> </HTML>