Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2004/05/26

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Subject: [Leica] Susan Sontag
From: bdcolen at earthlink.net (B. D. Colen)
Date: Wed May 26 06:50:28 2004

I find this post utter laughable for several reasons -
1. Abu Ghraid is filled with - up to 90% by several independent
estimates - innocent people who were swept up off the streets of Iraq,
not with people who can tell torturers where bombs are hidden. And while
there are undoubtedly some very bad actors in custody, most experts
agree that torture only gets the torturer the story they want - not the
truth;
2. Phil rants on infinitum with this pro-Administration, pro-torture
bullshit, and then has the absolute temerity to end his rant by saying,
"This is a site to discuss Leica cameras, lenses and accessories and the
taking of Leica pictures. Please take all criticism of our military to
sites set up for that purpose says that those who take a different view
should take the discussion to a military website."
3. I thought the reason that we invaded the sovereign nation of Iraq,
and that we become involved in other overseas adventures, is that we are
setting an example for the world; we are the good guys. Well, good guys
don't torture people. Are there times when, given the "ticking bomb"
scenario, the limits will be pushed in secret in individual cases? Of
course. We have always done that; virtually every nation has always done
that. But special cases are a far, far cry from what has quite clearly
been going on in Iraq and Afghanistan.

So, Phil, this is a site for discussion of things Leica and Leica
related - take your pro-torture rants to www.fascistbrotherhood.com -
they'll be glad to see you. 

B.D.



-----Original Message-----
From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
Philip Kokoczka
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 8:10 AM
To: lug@leica-users.org
Subject: [Leica] Susan Sontag


What would you do?
A group of criminals have kidnapped your wife and daughter. They are
known 
for gang raping, torturing and killing their captives. You happen to
find 
and capture a couple of them. They know where your wife and daughter are

being held, and have told you that they have only a short time left
before 
the raping, torturing and killing begin. What do you do to get the 
information where your wife and daughter are being held? If you just ask

them nicely to tell you where they are being held do you think they
would 
tell you?  What length would you go to in order to get them to tell you
the 
location at which your wife and daughter are being held?

Face it folks, times have changed. The Geneva convention was written to 
protect the rights and dignity of military personnel captured on the 
battlefield, not terrorists that cut off hands for punishment, or use a
wood 
chipper for "executions" or use poison gas on minority populations. I am

getting sick and tired of hearing the ilk of Ted Kennedy and his gang
trying 
to compare what our military did to what Sadam's henchmen did. How can
you 
compare putting panties on someone's head with giving them a bath in
nitric 
acid? These terrorists are out to kill you, your wife, daughters and
sons. 
They are out to kill your way of  life. They are out to impose their
version 
of Islam on you and the rest of the non-Islamic world. What regime do
you 
want to live under? Please, let these military people do what they can
to 
find out where the next strike is planned. And remember that these 
terrorists they are watching in the Iraqi prisons are not there because
they 
broke the speeding law or stole a candy bar from the neighborhood
grocery. 
They are there because they are terrorists and want to kill me, my
family, 
your family and my and your way of  life.

This is a site to discuss Leica cameras, lenses and accessories and the 
taking of Leica pictures. Please take all criticism of our military to
sites 
set up for that purpose

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Replies: Reply from mark at rabinergroup.com (Mark Rabiner) ([Leica] Susan Suntan)
Reply from raikorho at uusikaupunki.fi (Raimo K) ([Leica] Susan Sontag)
In reply to: Message from kokoczkaphotography at hotmail.com (Philip Kokoczka) ([Leica] Susan Sontag)