Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2006/09/30

[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]

Subject: [Leica] A digital camera without.....
From: s.dimitrov at charter.net (Slobodan Dimitrov)
Date: Sat Sep 30 12:09:40 2006
References: <007801c6e421$3323dd80$6501a8c0@asus930>

Good one!
Slobodan Dimitrov




On Sep 29, 2006, at 4:44 PM, G Hopkinson wrote:

> Slobodan, were you referring to B.D. or me? ;-)
> If you hand a DSLR to a Pan Troglodyte, will it Homo Sapiens with  
> the LCD?
>
> Cheers
> Hoppy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Slobodan Dimitrov [mailto:s.dimitrov@charter.net]
> Sent: Saturday, 30 September 2006 01:25
> To: Leica Users Group
> Subject: Re: [Leica] A digital camera without.....
>
> I think the proper term is simian ape. And yes, any well trained
> simian ape can be driven to make a superlative image, with any medium.
>
> Slobodan Dimitrov
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 29, 2006, at 8:20 AM, B. D. Colen wrote:
>
>> Well, it may not be either polite or helpful, Hoppy, it's true -
>> and written
>> in response to the kind of nonsense we've seen posted over the past
>> couple
>> days about the ability of any monkey to be a great photographer with
>> digital, etc.
>>
>> As to glass plates v film v digital - market penetration doesn't
>> have a damn
>> thing to do with it; the transition from film to digital represents
>> a sea
>> change in capture medium - in the way in which we use light to
>> record what
>> we see in front of us. And it's the same kind of change we had when
>> we went
>> from glass plates to film - moving from one capture medium to
>> another. The
>> fact that there were far fewer people making photographs prior to
>> film is
>> not the issue. Yes, the creation of film democratized photography.
>> But then
>> so is the cell phone camera democratizing photography. ( Don't
>> forget there
>> were many outstanding photographers and editors who scoffed at 35
>> mm cameras
>> as 'toys' as 35 was taking over ;-) )
>>
>> Sorry, Hoppy, but things have changed in a profound way. If one
>> prefers
>> using film, great - there's still film and processing available, so
>> go for
>> it. But at the same time, I think that no matter how much one loves
>> film,
>> one has to recognize that it is fast becoming an artifact of an
>> earlier age.
>> Yes, there are still areas of photography in which film is  
>> superior to
>> digital, and dominant. And yes, film will undoubtedly be with us
>> for eons to
>> come as a 'fine art' medium. But even today, digital and
>> photography have
>> become synonymous.
>>
>> So I guess the bottom line is - things change; get used to it
>> (please),
>> which is not to say that one shouldn't shoot film if one wants to
>> do so. :-)
>>
>> B. D.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/29/06 9:26 AM, "G Hopkinson" <hoppyman@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>> B.D. that's a bit simplistic, suggesting that digital vs film is
>>> analogous to
>>> film vs glass plates. I doubt that glass plates had
>>> the same sort of market penetration that 35mm film has.
>>> No question that digital has the majority of the market, but film
>>> still
>>> remains viable currently.
>>> People may choose to use either or both mediums right now.
>>> Sayings "things change - get used to it" is neither polite nor
>>> helpful in my
>>> view.
>>>
>>> Politely Hoppy
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: B. D. Colen [mailto:bd@bdcolenphoto.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, 29 September 2006 21:14
>>> To: Leica Users Group
>>> Subject: Re: [Leica] A digital camera without.....
>>>
>>> Or, even more simply put - you want a digital camera? Buy one. You
>>> don't?
>>> Don't buy one - stick with film as long as you can; there were
>>> undoubtedly
>>> people who stuck with glass plates.
>>>
>>> Things change - get used to it.
>>>
>>> By the way -the 'hi-speed' frame rate on the digital M8 is the
>>> same as the
>>> hi-speed frame rate on an M6 with an Abrahamson winder. Oh, and if
>>> you don't
>>> want to look at the LCD? Don't look it it. If you're chimping it's
>>> your
>>> fault - not the camera's. ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9/29/06 1:24 AM, "Nathan Wajsman" <nathan@nathanfoto.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would not buy a digital camera without a screen, simply  
>>>> because it
>>>> would need to have so many little buttons and wheels in lieu of
>>>> the menu
>>>> structure that it would be an ergonomic nightmare.
>>>>
>>>> As for the general comments about "too many features" in digital
>>>> SLRs,
>>>> the solution is simple--don't use them! The only controls I ever
>>>> use on
>>>> mine are switching between manual and aperture priority modes,
>>>> setting
>>>> the ISO speed, changing shutter speed or aperture and formatting  
>>>> the
>>>> memory card. That's it. I never chimp. My LCD is set to display the
>>>> picture and its histogram for 3 seconds after taking the picture,
>>>> just
>>>> so that I can take a quick peak at the histogram if I am so
>>>> inclined.
>>>> Since I shoot RAW only, my white balance setting is permenantly
>>>> on AUTO.
>>>> And so on.
>>>>
>>>> The many features of a 1-series Canon are all there, but they
>>>> certainly
>>>> don't get in the way of my photography. I have set up the camera
>>>> the way
>>>> I like it (regarding focus points etc.) and left it like that
>>>> ever since.
>>>>
>>>> All this reminds me of some of the complaining about the aperture
>>>> priority mode in the M7 or even the presence of a light meter in
>>>> the M6
>>>> (the indications in the viewfinder were distracting etc.).
>>>> Solution is
>>>> simple: if you don't like AE mode, then don't use it; if you
>>>> don't like
>>>> the light meter in your M6, then take the battery out.
>>>>
>>>> Nathan
>>>>
>>>> David Rodgers wrote:
>>>>> Digital cameras have many features. I'm wondering if some
>>>>> wouldn't be
>>>>> better off with fewer. For instance, what if there was a digital
>>>>> camera
>>>>> without an LCD preview screen? It'll probably never happen. And
>>>>> maybe
>>>>> it's not realistic to think it ever would. But if anyone could  
>>>>> have
>>>>> bucked the trend it would have been Leica. What if Leica hadn't
>>>>> put an
>>>>> LCD on the M8? We'd have screamed, for sure. But might not the
>>>>> M8 have
>>>>> been a better camera for it? Here's why.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) no chimping. My first reaction after snapping the shutter on  
>>>>> any
>>>>> digital camera is to look at the screen to see if I "got it"!
>>>>> The irony
>>>>> of that is that if I didn't get it I probably just wasted a second
>>>>> opportunity because I was too busy looking at the LCD. And so
>>>>> what if I
>>>>> didn't get it? What are my options? Unless I can fly around the
>>>>> world at
>>>>> the speed of light and turn back time, it's too late. What time
>>>>> I might
>>>>> have had I just wasted...chimping.
>>>>>
>>>>> Consider the case of someone having closed eyes in a shot. It  
>>>>> takes
>>>>> longer to verify that there were no closed eyes than to shoot 5
>>>>> frames,
>>>>> which was the old cure for closed eyes. With the M8 we shoot 5
>>>>> frames in
>>>>> 2.5 seconds. That's less time that it takes to analyze the LCD.
>>>>> Not to
>>>>> mention, "Sorry but Uncle Bob had his left eye half shut.
>>>>> Everyone line
>>>>> up again!" or "Sir could I please get you to walk back under
>>>>> that bird.
>>>>> I see in my preview window that you didn't have quite the
>>>>> expression I'd
>>>>> hoped for when it crapped on your shoulder."
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps we need to see images so we can delete the bad ones and
>>>>> save
>>>>> card space. Yet isn't that one big benefit of digital cameras
>>>>> over film?
>>>>> Each frame is essentially free, and I'm less constrained by the
>>>>> roll of
>>>>> 36. Why not just delete bad images later, after they are
>>>>> downloaded?
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) save space inside the camera. I don't know how much room the  
>>>>> LCD
>>>>> takes up, but I'm sure it takes up some. Do away with the LCD
>>>>> and you
>>>>> can make a smaller camera body. Or better yet, allocate that
>>>>> space to
>>>>> sensor electronics. (Apart for the M8 place more emphasis on a  
>>>>> good
>>>>> viewfinder. Heck, on many a P&P the LCD has replaced the
>>>>> viewfinder). On
>>>>> the M8 I'm sure having an LCD meant having a fatter camera.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) Longer battery life. That's not a big issue, but it could be in
>>>>> certain circumstances. Sure I can turn off the LCD. But it's still
>>>>> there.
>>>>>
>>>>> 4) Longer camera life. Might the LCD be the first thing to go?
>>>>> OK, so I
>>>>> might be reaching here. I guess we don't really look at cameras
>>>>> long
>>>>> term today.
>>>>>
>>>>> 5) Less fear of pressing nose up to back of camera. No explanation
>>>>> needed.
>>>>>
>>>>> OK, I'm sure by now everyone is saying that we still need access
>>>>> to the
>>>>> menu. After all we've got options to deal with. A simple shutter
>>>>> speed
>>>>> dial and aperture ring may have been satisfactory way back when,
>>>>> but now
>>>>> we need to toggle through a thousand and one configuration  
>>>>> choices.
>>>>> Today a simple situation calls for
>>>>> "Shades-Down-Red-22-Right-Bleed-Dive-Trips-All-Go" when yester-
>>>>> year the
>>>>> most complex situation we had to deal with called for
>>>>> "Sunny-16-and-Hail-Mary"?
>>>>>
>>>>> The ability to immediately see results has detracted from the
>>>>> discipline
>>>>> it takes to make sure we get it right in the first place.
>>>>> "Polaroid-like-instant-view-ability" is very
>>>>> un-"Leica-M-and-the-decisive-moment"-like.
>>>>>
>>>>> For those who absolutely must have a preview device here's the
>>>>> solution.
>>>>> Leica could have offered an LCD as an accessory. Not on the
>>>>> camera, but
>>>>> a small monitor you could put in your pocket. It would have its  
>>>>> own
>>>>> battery pack, control buttons, and it would easily plug into the
>>>>> M8.
>>>>> Best of all, just like bright-line finders it could easily be
>>>>> misplaced
>>>>> allowing Leica yet another source of ongoing revenue. Someone on
>>>>> the
>>>>> selling side obviously didn't think through all the advantages.
>>>>>
>>>>> daveR
>>>>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information

In reply to: Message from hoppyman at bigpond.net.au (G Hopkinson) ([Leica] A digital camera without.....)