Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2009/06/21

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Subject: [Leica] Are we no longer wanted?
From: kididdoc at cox.net (Steve Barbour)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 13:45:52 -0700
References: <4A3D60AB.6020607@gmx.de> <3cad89990906201939s2db48839uc107b2e31a40a5f5@mail.gmail.com> <36172e5a0906202028h6e2ce23bybd3fc25e1ed2a8d2@mail.gmail.com> <3cad89990906202157h1d77be61oe54741b935f4c4c9@mail.gmail.com> <36172e5a0906202232m10836d39p534aa0e533459832@mail.gmail.com> <5A24DE68-BDD2-4851-B310-EDB976ABAD70@cox.net> <36172e5a0906211142p7afad60ds36e7b6212a573991@mail.gmail.com>

On Jun 21, 2009, at 11:42 AM, Geoff Hopkinson wrote:

> Ouch! I have no idea where that came from or why you think I was  
> somehow
> interesting and mildly amusing. I was addressing Jayanand.

you are in fact, addressing the whole list Geoff...

and we are all here because we are leica enthusiasts...

but we don't need a leica cheerleader...(or maybe leica needs to  
employ their own cheerleaders... )

we just happily use the equipment, and criticize an inept, badly run  
company,

Steve


> I'm in trouble AGAIN for being enthusiastic about Leica??
> I'm out. Bye
>
> 2009/6/22 Steve Barbour <kididdoc at cox.net>
>
>>
>> On Jun 20, 2009, at 10:32 PM, Geoff Hopkinson wrote:
>>
>> Jayanand I feel defensive about Leica and the M8 because I am  
>> enthusiastic
>>> about both and frequently see your posts and approach to both as  
>>> negative.
>>> I can never understand that on a Leica list.
>>>
>>
>>
>> and many were here and leica enthusiasts long before you Geoff...
>>
>> (a fact that appears to have escaped you...)
>>
>> somehow interesting and mildly amusing,
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry, I just don't get it.
>>> Shooting and socialising with more than a hundred Leica  
>>> enthusiasts over a
>>> couple of days in Germany I saw a lot of keen photographers  
>>> enjoying their
>>> equipment.  No investment bankers although there was a least one  
>>> dentist
>>> ;-)
>>> I met a number of Leica staff from division heads and down and  
>>> they were
>>> without exception extraordinarily helpful and friendly. Looking at  
>>> their
>>> operation, people and facilities up close you can appreciate more  
>>> just why
>>> the lenses cost so much, for example. As you know I think they are  
>>> worth
>>> it. I want them to be around into the future too. I listened to  
>>> Stefan
>>> Daniel provide much candid insight about the state of business for  
>>> Leica,
>>> some of which I shared here. Leica needs the support of users.
>>> When you are as enthusiastic and committed as I am sometimes the  
>>> constant
>>> criticism or armchair CEO advice on the web forums gets frustrating.
>>>
>>> Never mind I'll say no more and we'll continue to continue to have  
>>> polar
>>> opposite but amicable views on Leica and Adobe and Nikon and no  
>>> doubt much
>>> else besides ;-)
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>> 2009/6/21 Jayanand Govindaraj <jayanand at gmail.com>
>>>
>>> Geoff,
>>>> It is not some, but most of the sales have gone to folks who  
>>>> would use an
>>>> M8
>>>> as a fashion accessory. The real users buy most of their Leica  
>>>> kit used,
>>>> which is of no use to Leica, the company. The M8 in its early  
>>>> days was an
>>>> exception, but recently most of the messages on this list on this  
>>>> subject
>>>> are about buying it used, or about alternatives from Panasonic and
>>>> Olympus.
>>>> The fact is that Leica is marketing into a certain segment of  
>>>> society
>>>> which
>>>> is in difficulty now because of the economic crisis, so the S2  
>>>> targeted
>>>> at
>>>> professionals may be a good idea after all. Much better than  
>>>> bringing out
>>>> a
>>>> R10 which will sell in miniscule numbers. At least the numbers  
>>>> that the
>>>> S2
>>>> will sell at would bring in much larger margins. Whatever we may  
>>>> think,
>>>> volumes do count! The D5000 is far more important than the D3x  
>>>> for Nikon
>>>> from a company health and profitability point of view. I also  
>>>> think that
>>>> Leica have screwed up big time by not bringing in a less  
>>>> expensive M
>>>> camera,
>>>> maybe with an EVF, and not following Zeiss' example of offering  
>>>> their
>>>> legendary lenses in Nikon/Canon/M42 mounts. If the M is not  
>>>> central to
>>>> their
>>>> future, as it seems right now, they might as well maximise the  
>>>> revenue
>>>> from
>>>> their main intellectual property, i.e. the lens designs for the M  
>>>> and R
>>>> lines. All in all, Leica seems to be a confused company right  
>>>> now, and
>>>> not
>>>> a
>>>> very well managed one at that. Pity.
>>>>
>>>> I do not know why calling an item a rich man's plaything has such
>>>> negative
>>>> connotations. It certainly does not reflect on the quality of the  
>>>> item,
>>>> or
>>>> the user. I have expensive watches, use only bespoke clothing,  
>>>> etc. etc.
>>>> which are all extravagances, and I am unapologetic about it. I  
>>>> bought a
>>>> Nikkor 200-400 lens, which for an amateur is an extravagance,  
>>>> too. I
>>>> don't
>>>> drive expensive cars because that is not my scene, and I get no  
>>>> pleasure
>>>> from it.   Why don't you just enjoy the M8 instead of getting  
>>>> defensive
>>>> about it every time? Accept it in your mind that it is your  
>>>> indulgence,
>>>> and
>>>> that is it!
>>>>
>>>> I am debating between the M8 and G1 because, for me, it would be  
>>>> very
>>>> much
>>>> a
>>>> secondary system to my Nikon kit and spending a load of cash into  
>>>> a body
>>>> that will not be used very much seems a waste - better buy a D700
>>>> instead.
>>>> I
>>>> was all prepared to buy a M9 when it came out, with all issues  
>>>> sorted out
>>>> (like the necessity of using an IR filter, which in hot, humid,  
>>>> dusty
>>>> climates like ours is a PITA), but now it looks as if it might  
>>>> not come
>>>> for
>>>> quite some time, if at all. Hence the quandary.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Jayanand
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Geoff Hopkinson <hopsternew at 
>>>> gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some folks with lots of spare funds might buy Leica because it is  
>>>> stylish
>>>>> or
>>>>> elegant or higher status or whatever. Good for them. It helps  
>>>>> Leica
>>>>> which
>>>>> helps other users too. Who knows, some of your investment  
>>>>> bankers may
>>>>>
>>>> shoot
>>>>
>>>>> with their new cameras and get addicted.
>>>>> Keen enthusiasts will find the money or build their outfits as  
>>>>> they can
>>>>>
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>> choose Leica for the reasons we choose Leica.
>>>>> Point of interest. The Summilux 50 ASPH. outsells the much  
>>>>> cheaper and
>>>>> still by all accounts excellent Summarit 50  by 2:1
>>>>> Why would that be?
>>>>>
>>>>> 2009/6/21 Jayanand Govindaraj <jayanand at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> Douglas,
>>>>>> This has been evident for years now. They have been targeting  
>>>>>> rich
>>>>>> investment bankers and their ilk, not you and me. It became quite
>>>>>>
>>>>> obvious
>>>>
>>>>> with the M8 advertising campaign, which was far more prominent  
>>>>> in the
>>>>>> GQ/Esquire type magazines rather than hardcore photography  
>>>>>> magazines.
>>>>>>
>>>>> It
>>>>
>>>>> was
>>>>>> also heavily featured in the "fashion tech" pages (alongside the
>>>>>>
>>>>> Ipod,etc)
>>>>>
>>>>>> of those magazines. But if truth be told, the bankers would buy  
>>>>>> new,
>>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>> we
>>>>>
>>>>>> would buy second hand...
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> Jayanand
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 3:50 AM, Douglas Sharp <douglas.sharp at 
>>>>>> gmx.de 
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was looking up things Leica on the Web recently and noticed the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> number
>>>>>
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> hits that turn up for Leica on "lifestyle" pages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It didn't seem to work after their flutter with Hermes, but  
>>>>>>> now they
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> seem
>>>>>
>>>>>> to have got their products prominently "placed", or even  
>>>>>> "positioned"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> (in
>>>>>
>>>>>> the words of the world of marketing)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No more mention of precision optics and superb engineering -  
>>>>>>> it's all
>>>>>>> turned into up-market hype about the special finish, how they  
>>>>>>> look
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>> if
>>>>>
>>>>>> they have a perfectly matching bag... everything in black, white,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> olive
>>>>
>>>>> green, titanium and silver seems to be the name of the game.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The opening of the new Leica Shop in Moscow's uppest-market
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> residential
>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> shopping quarter at the end of May seems to be following the  
>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> trend.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wouldn't be surprised to find cameras in gold and royal blue  
>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> double
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> eagle or in Faberge enamel soon, packed in a matching Faberge  
>>>>>>> easter
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> egg.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then Ferrari red, Bugatti blue, Mercedes silver and, and,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> and.........
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The higher prices are obviously already a unique and exclusive
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> selling
>>>>
>>>>> point for people who want to be seen with a Leica as a lifestyle
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> accessory.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The M8 Safari is almost sold out, the White Edition has gone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> completely,
>>>>>
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> D-Lux 4 Titan and a D-Lux 4 Safari are selling well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is all very good for Leica, but I think it bodes ill for  
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> former
>>>>>
>>>>>> target group to which we all most probably belong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> Douglas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more  
>>>>>>> information
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more  
>>>>>> information
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> Geoff
>>>>> 'Life's not B&W, except at both ends'
>>>>> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/gh/
>>>>> http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more  
>>>>> information
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more  
>>>> information
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cheers
>>> Geoff
>>> 'Life's not B&W, except at both ends'
>>> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/gh/
>>> http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Cheers
> Geoff
> 'Life's not B&W, except at both ends'
> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/gh/
> http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman
>
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information



Replies: Reply from imagist3 at mac.com (George Lottermoser) ([Leica] Are we no longer wanted?)
Reply from images at comporium.net (Tina Manley) ([Leica] Are we no longer wanted?)
In reply to: Message from douglas.sharp at gmx.de (Douglas Sharp) ([Leica] Are we no longer wanted?)
Message from jayanand at gmail.com (Jayanand Govindaraj) ([Leica] Are we no longer wanted?)
Message from hopsternew at gmail.com (Geoff Hopkinson) ([Leica] Are we no longer wanted?)
Message from jayanand at gmail.com (Jayanand Govindaraj) ([Leica] Are we no longer wanted?)
Message from hopsternew at gmail.com (Geoff Hopkinson) ([Leica] Are we no longer wanted?)
Message from kididdoc at cox.net (Steve Barbour) ([Leica] Are we no longer wanted?)
Message from hopsternew at gmail.com (Geoff Hopkinson) ([Leica] Are we no longer wanted?)