Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2012/08/22

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Subject: [Leica] Amazon's long-term storage
From: billcpearce at cox.net (Bill Pearce)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 23:34:57 -0500
References: <B35F26E1-1B26-45C3-9B64-017447B9EF0F@mac.com><58F172C8-AE31-4DC6-A961-011D686B9370@aotera.org><77435976-AED2-40D5-BE31-5BA072D0784E@mac.com><726BE5AD-416F-4021-A1CB-E16E0093684D@aotera.org><CAH1UNJ0pDaNq7KYT1nE4GpzVYeZCLi=HXGas8oBUVzrRwabNOA@mail.gmail.com> <75E2FAAA-5EC9-4EBD-B150-13CDF1841E5F@aotera.org>

OK, I'm confused. With portable hard drives so inexpensive these days, and 
multi disc raid arrays not too expensive, why do we care about this cloud 
crap. Whatever they do, we are just passengers, at their mercy. What happens 
when they decide to shut things down? not like that's never happened. Put 
your files on portable hard drives, store one in an off-site location, the 
ones at home in a fire safe, and be happy. That way you are driving the bus.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Spencer Cheng
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 11:27 PM
To: Leica Users Group
Subject: Re: [Leica] Amazon's long-term storage

To me, at this moment, no, because it is very new and unproven. Is the 
technology reasonably sound? Probably since tape is well-established 
technology. Is their disaster recovery plans adequate? Unknown since Amazon 
hasn't said what it is other than some vague handwaving about multi-site 
replication. That magic 99.99999999% I would classify as purely marketing 
material until Amazon discloses how it is calculated. Can they guarantee 
data recovery for at least 20-50 years? No idea.

If you have no other location where you can store data (office, home, 
friend's place), it might be worth a try. Uploading lots of photos (say RAW 
files @ 20MB each) will take quite a while with residential broadband 
connections is also a consideration.

Regards,
Spencer

On Aug 22, 2012, at 23:06, Jayanand Govindaraj <jayanand at gmail.com> wrote:

> I do not understand all this nit picking - my only question is: "is it
> technologically good enough for an offsite backup - an additional 
> safeguard
> to normal backups?" If it is, it is worth it. It is not as if our work is
> indispensable as of now to the world at large. If our data is good enough
> to preserve, someone will find a way to do it.
> Cheers
> Jayanand
>
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 1:33 AM, Spencer Cheng <spencer at aotera.org> 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Adam,
>>
>> According to the National Archive in Canada, the only archival medium
>> suitable for 100 years is acid-free paper or microfiche. Our national
>> census data which has to be stored for 75 years by law is delivered to 
>> the
>> Archive on paper as far as I know.
>>
>> My preference is for laser-etched granite tablets. ;-)
>>
>> Modern tape drives have their own ECC scheme when they write data. Amazon
>> would have to constantly copy the data in order to ensure that any of the
>> tapes hasn't gone bad. Modern tapes are much improved over the DAT drives 
>> I
>> used 15 years ago but they certainly are not archival quality.
>>
>> Keeping any system up for 99.999% time is a major struggle requiring very
>> complex engineering. My imagination is significantly stretched by
>> 99.99999999%. It definitely sounds like marketing speak. :)
>>
>> Regards,
>> Spencer
>>
>> On Aug 22, 2012, at 15:16, Adam Bridge <abridge at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You shouldn't really be surprised, Spencer. If data redundancy is built
>> into the storage - lots of extra bits to allow for recoverable data - 
>> then
>> you'd get the durability that Amazon quotes.
>>>
>>> You're guessing that they store on tape. That might be true but for
>> long-term storage tape isn't an ideal candidate. However it's stored,
>> Amazon says they have a technology, or a growth path for technology, that
>> will keep your data alive and available for the indefinite future.
>>>
>>> Looks pretty attractive to me.
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> On Aug 21, 2012, at 6:12 PM, Spencer Cheng <spencer at aotera.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sounds nice. Sounds a bit too good to be true. I would guess Amazon
>> stores the data on tape on multiple sites.
>>>>
>>>> "Amazon Glacier is designed to provide average annual durability of
>> 99.999999999% for an archive"
>>>>
>>>> I am surprised that that level of durability is possible on perishable
>> media (and I don't really believe it :).
>>>>
>>>> One aspect of archival storage of digital data which is often
>> overlooked is that digital data has to be regularly transcribed/converted
>> to a current format for the archive to be useful.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Spencer
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 21, 2012, at 18:28, Adam Bridge <abridge at mac.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Amazon has announced "Glacier" as a long-term storage / infrequent
>> retrieval service. It would seem perfect for those who wish to have a
>> completely separate backup for their important image libraries.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can read about it here:
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://aws.amazon.com/glacier/>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is NOT for ready on-line storage. You might have to wait 5 hours
>> to get your data. But it looks reasonably affordable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Adam Bridge
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
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>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>


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In reply to: Message from abridge at mac.com (Adam Bridge) ([Leica] Amazon's long-term storage)
Message from spencer at aotera.org (Spencer Cheng) ([Leica] Amazon's long-term storage)
Message from abridge at mac.com (Adam Bridge) ([Leica] Amazon's long-term storage)
Message from spencer at aotera.org (Spencer Cheng) ([Leica] Amazon's long-term storage)
Message from jayanand at gmail.com (Jayanand Govindaraj) ([Leica] Amazon's long-term storage)
Message from spencer at aotera.org (Spencer Cheng) ([Leica] Amazon's long-term storage)