[Leica] OT Gun Violence

[photo.forrest at earthlink.net (Phil Forrest)]

Absollutely perfect, Jon. 

Phil Forrest


On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 09:59:17 -0800
"jon.streeter" <jon.streeter at cox.net> wrote:

> Some very sensible ideas.  
> 
> This is an issue that will never be settled.  
> 
> The biggest threat to the lives of people the world over and
> throughout history has been and remains their own governments.
> Governments are composed of people.  Nothing guarantees those people
> will comport themselves nobly and in the best interests of the people
> over whom they inevitably hold power.
> 
> Tyrants cannot remain in power over an armed citizenry.  All
> tyrannies and genocides and democides (death by government, cf Prof.
> Rummel) have begun by disarming the citizenry.  All disarming of the
> citizenry has begun with regulation, which is to say, gun control.  
> 
> Regulation generally begins with registration and usually involves
> taxes and licenses and rules on who gets to own what.  In the US it
> began with bans on gun ownership by freed slaves.  
> 
> Typical approaches to gun control can seem quite reasonable:
> restrictions or bans on only certain kinds of weapons (such as
> large-caliber or high-capacity or inexpensive or very expensive or
> military-in-appearance or very large or very small) in a divide-and
> conquer strategy.
> 
> In the 20th century, governments murdered six times as many of their
> own citizens (or subjects) as were killed in all the wars in that
> century.  All of these democides began with gun confiscation which
> began with gun control.
> 
> Of course, that can't happen "here."
> England confiscated most firearms a few years ago.  Crime and gun
> crime have risen.  A UN report stated that England is now the most
> likely place in Western Europe to get mugged.
> 
> Typically the "debate" is characterized by much heat and little
> light.  John Lott, Harvard economist, has written a densely technical
> book regarding his study of every county in the US for a period,
> initially, of 18 years, "More Guns, Less Crime," in which he claims
> to show that violent crime rates fall when citizens are permitted by
> local laws to carry concealed weapons.  The response by the
> opposition, for example, Alan Dershowitz, has been simply to call his
> entire study "junk science." 
> 
> As I say, this issue will never be settled.  Governments everywhere
> will continue to expand gun control. Gun control advocates are now
> hard at work crafting a worldwide ban on gun ownership by private
> citizens ti be put into effect by a treaty which, it's claimed, will
> supercede the US Constitution. 
> 
> The tragedy in the school shooting took about twenty lives.  In the
> 20th century, governments took over 270 million lives, lives of their
> own citizens whom they had first disarmed.  
> 
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone
> 
> ----- Reply message -----
> From: "Mark Kronquist" <mak at teleport.com>
> To: "Leica Users Group" <lug at leica-users.org>
> Subject: [Leica] OT Gun Violence
> Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:43 pm
> 
> 
> Gun violence. Time for some sensible legislation
> 
> Many of you know my day job, some don't. I am "in the industry" as a
> Vice President for the largest manufacturer of firearms in the
> region. Our products are far more tightly controlled and not likely
> to be involved in one of these incidents. 
> 
> First, my heart goes out to the victims of these senseless tragedies.
> 
> I realize that the AR-15 platform used in Oregon was stolen and the
> Bushmaster used in CT was illegal in CT. Not sure about CT handgun
> laws and whether the Glock and Sig P226 were CT legal or not. Nor do
> I know if the weapons were stolen, purchased legally before the 1994
> ban or whatnot. These are minor issues. Criminals will break the law.
> 
> We cannot be Pollyanna's and magically make guns or the Second
> Amendment disappear. Face it guns are a part of our society...like it
> or not. Will these few ideas end gun crime? No. If a criminal or an
> mentally ill person is going to use a gun to commit a crime, they
> will find a gun...just maybe these ideas will make it a bit harder
> and discourage the opportunist.
> 
> 1. What we can do is get rid of the crazy patchwork of gun laws that
> ban a gun in one county or city or state or the purchase of that
> gun...for example, the Gifford's shooter in Arizona could not have
> legally purchased the gun used int he killings in say, a far left,
> liberal state called oh...Idaho...or at least three dozen other
> states. Why can a mentally ill (sorry to offend those who don't like
> labels but call it otheradvantaged, challenged or whatever the
> shooter was not of right mind) purchase a hand gun in Arizona and not
> in Idaho? Why not have ONE NATIONAL STANDARD FOR RIFLES? HANDGUNS?
> CONCEALED CARRY? States rights folks will be up in arms but, I think
> the 2nd Amendment makes this a Federal issue, not a state one...we
> did it at the FEDERAL LEVEL with the 1934 act banning machine guns
> and the 1968 act banning Saturday Night Specials.
> 
> 2. I just got home from a long day and opened a beer. We pay a social
> welfare tax on beer. We pay a social welfare tax on cigarettes. We
> pay a social welfare tax on lottery tickets. On chewing tobacco on
> candy in some places. Right now any 18 year old can walk into any
> BiMart, Fred Meyer, K-Mart, WalMart or wherever and lay down 15-16
> bucks for 500 rounds of .22 ammo. Yes I know that .22 is not often
> used in mass murders and that there is a 15% excise tax on new ammo
> but this tax goes to the general fund, not to offsetting the toll
> caused by gun violence in our society. So I grant those arguments and
> ask is a penny or a nickel a round for rifle ammo going to hurt
> hunters that badly? Heck double it and put the other half to hunting
> habitat restoration through Rocky Mountain Elk or Ducks Unlimited.
> 
> 3. Scary guns and pretty guns are just as deadly in the wrong hands.
> My French 49-56 MAS Battle Rifle holds only 10 rounds per clip and
> has a beautiful, wood stock and lacks a pistol grip, muzzle
> compensator or other cosmetics that were banned in the US from
> 1994-2004. Yet in the wrong hands it is far more deadly than
> a .223/5.56 (the most common M-16 AR-15 platform round)...and the MAS
> makes it easy as easy to change a magazine in about 2
> seconds...unclip, drop, clip, rerack shoot. Capacity limits are
> do-good fiction. 10 rounds (the 1994-2004 maximum) are just as deadly
> as 30 and changing any mag takes just a second or two...in a mall or
> school filled with innocents it's not going to matter.
> 
> 4. Driver's license. Motorcycle License. Food Server's Food Handling
> Permit, Alcohol Server's License. On and on and on. Gun. Walk in to a
> gun shop slap down ten bucks for a basic background check and we give
> you the keys to an Indy Car...Yes a Libertarians' nightmare. Why not
> REQUIRE a national standard handgun safety class to buy a handgun
> (pass the class once, you receive a license as counterfeit proof as
> currency (will a criminal copy it? Sure. Will a 15 year old gang
> banger (again sorry to offend) No.) Why not a hunting safety class
> for a rifle purchase and a national class and standard for concealed
> carry as well...and, yes, please NRA, you guys are great at gun
> safety, please teach and profit from the classes. 
> 
> My 2 cents.
> 
> I am sure many disagree. Disagree with dignity and finesse. We all
> have opinions...please share yours. 
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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