Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2013/06/27

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Subject: [Leica] AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!
From: steve.barbour at gmail.com (Steve Barbour)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 17:51:23 -0700
References: <CDF1F2EA.C43E%mark@rabinergroup.com>

On Jun 27, 2013, at 10:47 AM, Mark Rabiner <mark at rabinergroup.com> wrote:

> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/lugalrabs/


many extraordinary images, much appreciated by me , as you know, many shot 
with reduced format cameras, of a variety like the Nikon D200, so what's 
wrong with that?   Please go back and read the dpreview of the D200. Was a 
great camera and the only limitation of the reduced format was if you wanted 
to decorate the side of a bus.



Steve


> On 6/26/13 4:23 PM, "Steve Barbour" <steve.barbour at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Jun 26, 2013, at 11:55 AM, Mark Rabiner <mark at rabinergroup.com> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Why don't you Steve?
>> 
>> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/barbour/paw2013/?g2_page=5
>> 
>> and the preceding pages...(many leica, many other, you can not tell the
>> difference)
>> 
>> You would know, if you had taken a look at some of my images, and those of
>> many other photographers here.
>> 
>> So a chance for a look now.... me, I'm out.
>> 
>> No more, I'm on my way to make some pictures.
>> 
>> 
>> Steve
>> 
>> 
>>> On 6/26/13 2:34 PM, "Steve Barbour" <steve.barbour at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> hey Mark, why don't you hang it up and take some good pictures with what
>>>> ever....
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Steve
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Jun 26, 2013, at 11:24 AM, Mark Rabiner <mark at rabinergroup.com> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> "Good value" is a key term concerning this whole Leica deal.
>>>>> A fact that since its inception there was always a cheaper way to take
>>>>> pictures.  Always will be. Won't a Pentax Spotmatic still take very 
>>>>> nice
>>>>> pictures?
>>>>> If it did and it cost half a Leica then its clearly to most people a 
>>>>> better
>>>>> value is it not?
>>>>> Or a Nikon F used by the vast majority of pro's a while back. Why pay 
>>>>> more
>>>>> than what the pros are paying? Don't you need to be looking through the
>>>>> lens?
>>>>> But a few went for the Leica for the numerous reasons which gets
>>>>> occasionally discussed here and other Leica lists.
>>>>> 1. You get to NOT look through the lens.
>>>>> 2. Premium build and glass.
>>>>> 3. more compact basic size form.
>>>>> 4. a bit more low key on the job
>>>>> 
>>>>> 5. looks nicer.
>>>>> 6. feels nicer.
>>>>> 8. a better investment of money.
>>>>> 9. I forgot.
>>>>> 10. _____ insert your own reason here.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As far as Leica goes it should got without saying there is always a 
>>>>> cheaper
>>>>> way out. And that gets called " good value". And that term was used by 
>>>>> a
>>>>> few
>>>>> others in the past couple of days and in reviews of the New Vario X I 
>>>>> just
>>>>> read...."but is it a good value?" they guy said.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Any of my Leica lenses I got in the 90's and beyond I can sell for 
>>>>> twice
>>>>> what I laid out for them new.
>>>>> Any Nikon lens I got was like driving out of a dealership with a new 
>>>>> car.
>>>>> A not small irretrievable loss had just occurred.
>>>>> 
>>>>> And every time I reached for my 35mm ASPH f2 Summicron M it didn't ask 
>>>>> me
>>>>> for another $1495.
>>>>> It just made better images than any Nikon lens I had by far.
>>>>> 16x20 and 20x24 inch prints made first in my darkroom and then on my 
>>>>> Epson
>>>>> in odd sizes made for no doubt.
>>>>> And still I got to use the lens and it never once asked me for more 
>>>>> cash.
>>>>> The  $1495 was gone. I'd long forgotten what else I may have done with 
>>>>> it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yes put me on the list please!
>>>>> Check it twice.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have faith that many more of us will be getting new Leica M's this 
>>>>> year
>>>>> and in the very near future. As plenty other people brand new to all 
>>>>> things
>>>>> Leica will be this year and in the very near future. And many of these
>>>>> people will be doing some high profile work.
>>>>> Soon you wont be able to get a decent table in a McDonalds without a 
>>>>> Leica
>>>>> M
>>>>> in your side bag.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 6/26/13 2:14 AM, "Geoff Hopkinson" <hopsternew at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mark, I doubt that anyone else on the list is as enthused with the 
>>>>>> new M
>>>>>> (or all of the M stuff I guess) as I am. I just got mine yesterday so 
>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>> barely starting to learn it.
>>>>>> Of course they are also still in extremely short supply and they cost 
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> lot. So was the M8 and the M9 initially. Actually mine cost me
>>>>>> significantly less than my M9  (which is going to a good home on the
>>>>>> list).
>>>>>> I was just commenting that the Fuji cameras are very popular and seem 
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> good value, so much so here that no-one can sell you one in my city
>>>>>> currently which is a little ironic. Do I need one and would I buy 
>>>>>> one, no,
>>>>>> for the very obvious reason that I'm lucky enough to have a great 
>>>>>> camera
>>>>>> with superb lenses to use.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'll put you on my group email list for stuff on the new camera if you
>>>>>> like. There just aren't many owners here as yet, I think. Henning a 
>>>>>> couple
>>>>>> of others as I recall.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> *Family and friends are everything.*
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> Geoff
>>>>>> http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 26 June 2013 13:39, Mark Rabiner <mark at rabinergroup.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Well I hope my tone was clear I'm on your side for being the only 
>>>>>>> one to
>>>>>>> mention the Leica brand on the thread I think it was an M240 you
>>>>>>> recommended.
>>>>>>> I was a bit put off by the unanimous consensus to get the Fuji system
>>>>>>> camera
>>>>>>> on the LUG today. Leica has moved far beyond this now. Cropped 
>>>>>>> systems.
>>>>>>> The fuji is a half assed compromise.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I don't feel if that's what your now saying that the fact that the 
>>>>>>> Fuji
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> sold out that that makes it an item of interest for a list of 
>>>>>>> supposed
>>>>>>> Leica
>>>>>>> lovers. It just means they made a camera marketed at the masses and 
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> succeeding on that account.
>>>>>>> As far as APS-2 1.5x compacts go I'm ok with the ones with non
>>>>>>> interchangeable lenes. The idea of using my set of Leica glass on a
>>>>>>> cropped
>>>>>>> format with odd balance and limited compatibility does not excite 
>>>>>>> me. But
>>>>>>> quite puts me off.
>>>>>>> The APS-C format is fine for me on a camera which goes into a pants
>>>>>>> pocket.
>>>>>>> I'd even go the Vario X route though it would need a coat pocket.
>>>>>>> The compact glass on the Leica X2 or Vario are made for that format.
>>>>>>> As are some other ones.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Fujifilm X100s $1,299 1.5 crop
>>>>>>> Leica X2 $1,995  1.5 crop
>>>>>>> Nikon Coolpix A $1,097  1.5 crop
>>>>>>> Ricoh GR $797  1.5 crop
>>>>>>> Sigma DP1, 2 or 3. $999 with a sensor closer to 2x crop.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> But the camera to get of course is the Sony RX1 full frame.
>>>>>>> If I was not shooting with an M240 that would be my camera of choice.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'm afraid at this point I have no patience for an M9 and the money 
>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to pay for one. I see it as a failed camera. A nice try, but no 
>>>>>>> cigar.
>>>>>>> The fact that its no longer made speaks for itself.
>>>>>>> It was strike two.
>>>>>>> And strike three is not going to happen for the new digital Leica 
>>>>>>> company
>>>>>>> because the Leica M240 and Monochrom are huge winners taking the 
>>>>>>> company
>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>> to a higher level which I'm excited about. One in which far more 
>>>>>>> serious
>>>>>>> users are using rangefinder Leica gear.
>>>>>>> And the S Too.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'm not excited about people on the Leica list talking about a 
>>>>>>> cropped
>>>>>>> fuji
>>>>>>> as if its a replacement for a full frame M. which it clearly isn't.
>>>>>>> I'd expect to hear such garbage on the fuji list if there is one.
>>>>>>> Or a bunch of computer geeks talking gadgets du jour.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 6/25/13 6:39 PM, "Geoff Hopkinson" <hopsternew at gmail.com> 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Mark I could be considered biased here ;-)
>>>>>>>> However just suggesting what may work best for Ric whose apparently 
>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>> facing a large repair bill for a previously repaired M8.  
>>>>>>>> Personally I
>>>>>>>> would be very frustrated in his position and very reluctant to spend
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> on the M8. I would maybe also be elevating my protest if the repair
>>>>>>> agency
>>>>>>>> has said no to a warranty claim. Everyone's circumstance is 
>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> their own of course. My understanding of that shutter problem was 
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> slower max speed ones ought to be better. The shutter unit is in any
>>>>>>> case a
>>>>>>>> standard Copal unit that has been in many many camera for years
>>>>>>> including I
>>>>>>>> think R cameras and the M9 too. I know nothing on any MTBF histories
>>>>>>> though.
>>>>>>>> For what it's worth the excellent Fuji cameras are back ordered
>>>>>>> everywhere
>>>>>>>> here as well... But you can pick up almost any M lens or a 
>>>>>>>> Monochrom or
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>> M-E or an X anything or even a Dlux jeans edition right off a 
>>>>>>>> shelf. You
>>>>>>>> would wait longer for an M though...but my wait is over ;-)
>>>>>>>> On Jun 26, 2013 7:28 AM, "Mark Rabiner" <mark at rabinergroup.com> 
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Geoff you seem to be suggesting that someone on the LUG go out and 
>>>>>>>>> buy
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> Leica camera. I can't even belive what I am reading. You are way 
>>>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>> topic.
>>>>>>>>> This is the Fuji only zone.
>>>>>>>>> Here today gone tomorrow cameras only.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 6/25/13 5:16 PM, "Geoff Hopkinson" <hopsternew at gmail.com> 
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I can only speak about the international warranty Ric where that 
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> case. I don't know the circumstances of the failure you got nor 
>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> done of course. A camera that goes to Solms at least is assessed
>>>>>>>>> completely
>>>>>>>>>> when any paid service is performed and any additional work would 
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> quoted
>>>>>>>>>> and everything adjusted to spec and guaranteed. For the M9 at 
>>>>>>>>>> least at
>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>> point you could buy an additional warranty period too.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> *Family and friends are everything.*
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>> Geoff
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 25 June 2013 21:32, RicCarter <ric at cartersxrd.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> would that were true--my other M8 died less than a year after 
>>>>>>>>>>> Leica
>>>>>>> CLA.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> They refused to talk about repaair because they said they had not
>>>>>>>>> replaced
>>>>>>>>>>> the shutter.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> ric
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 25, 2013, at 5:27 AM, Geoff Hopkinson <hopsternew at 
>>>>>>>>>>> gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Pay for a CLA and then get twelve months warranty on the whole
>>>>>>>>>>>> camera
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>>>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more 
>>>>>>>>>>> information
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more 
>>>>>>>>>> information
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Mark William Rabiner
>>>>>>>>> Photography
>>>>>>>>> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/lugalrabs/
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more 
>>>>>>>>> information
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mark William Rabiner
>>>>>>> Photography
>>>>>>> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/lugalrabs/
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Mark William Rabiner
>>>>> Photography
>>>>> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/lugalrabs/
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Mark William Rabiner
>>> Photography
>>> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/lugalrabs/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Mark William Rabiner
> Photography
> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/lugalrabs/
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information



In reply to: Message from mark at rabinergroup.com (Mark Rabiner) ([Leica] AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!)