Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2013/07/02

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Subject: [Leica] Leica Cameras
From: jsmith342 at gmail.com (Jeffery Smith)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 15:14:32 -0500
References: <CDF8A883.32363%chris@chriscrawfordphoto.com>

Human evolved frontal lobes to avoid doing exactly this to other living 
things. That frontal lobes evolved suggests that they were beneficial to 
humans as a species. This is a completely Pyrrhic victory you seem to be 
celebrating. If you feel that, to be around you people have to grow a 
thicker skin, you have to ask if people want to be around you that badly. 
Students, unfortunately, don't have that choice. 

Jeffery


On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:06 PM, Chris Crawford wrote:

> Tina made it because she started out a very long time ago. She has stated
> that she invested the money she made in better times in the past and used
> that to buy her digital Leicas today. Nothing wrong with that, but that
> means her experience is not relevant to young ones just starting out. New
> photojournalists today do not make the money to buy that stuff. Sorry to
> upset you with facts, but that's reality. What I said was true, and will
> never apologize for telling the truth to anyone.
> 
> Not one person who has complained about what I said has taken issue with
> the facts of what I said, except you. The others knew I was right, but
> didn't like those facts, so they attacked the way I said it. I stand by
> every word I have written.
> 
> This reminds me of one time a student showed up for class late for the 5th
> day in a row. I told him he needed to learn to tell time, which made him
> mad. "You're disrespecting me!" I told him to start coming to class on
> time, and I'll respect him, which made the rest of the class break out in
> laughter. The student started coming to class on time after that.
> 
> 99% of the problem with today's world is people value feelings over facts
> and rationality.
> 
> -- 
> Chris Crawford
> Fine Art Photography
> Fort Wayne, Indiana
> 260-437-8990
> 
> http://www.chriscrawfordphoto.com  My portfolio
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Christopher-Crawford/48229272798
> Become a fan on Facebook
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/2/13 3:51 PM, "Barney Quinn" <bjq1 at mac.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> This is in no sense an improvement. You have, in my view, made things
>> worse. The face that your have been abused in your life, or the fact that
>> people have said hard things to you in no way, under no circumstances
>> provides you with any reasonable justification for abusing or being angry
>> with any other human being. Two wrongs to not make a right. That is a
>> totally bankrupt moral position. Quite the contrary. Having been hurt it
>> should motivate you to take care not to injure others.
>> 
>> What you said to Tina was hurtful. Rewording it so that it says parent,
>> partner, boy friend, girlfriend, aunt, uncle, or whomever in no way makes
>> the remark acceptable because the core thrust of your comment is that
>> Tina can't make it on her own. That is simply not true. She did. I have
>> enormous respect for her as a person and as a photographer. I do not
>> comment on it all that often, but I very much enjoy her pictures. I
>> always make it a point to look at them.
>> 
>> The prime tenant of being in a hole, which is where you are, is to stop
>> digging. Wouldn't it be better all around if you put down your shovel,
>> stopped digging, admitted you crossed a line you would have been better
>> advised not to cross, apologize, and then got on with your photography.
>> 
>> Perhaps you might consider taking the advice you gave Tina. What is it
>> about this discussion which has such an emotional hold on you??
>> 
>> Banrey
>> 
>> 
>> E-Mail: bjq1 at mac.com
>> Home: (301) 654-0938
>> Cell: (301) 775-1386
>> 
>> 
>> On Jul 02, 2013, at 02:46 PM, Chris Crawford
>> <chris at chriscrawfordphoto.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Tina, what I said about your husband having to buy you gear wasn't meant
>>> to be sexist. If you were not married, I'd have said your parents would
>>> have to do it, and if you were a man I'd say wife or parents depending
>>> on
>>> if you were married. Someone with money would have to buy you the gear
>>> you
>>> use if you were starting your career now because as a professional
>>> photographer, you would absolutely not earn enough yourself to do it.
>>> As I
>>> said in my original post, that is not a negative comment on the worth of
>>> your photographs, it is simply the economic reality in today's world
>>> where
>>> photojournalists are so poorly paid. As I said in my original post, I
>>> make
>>> more as a first year high school teacher than fulltime photojournalists
>>> I
>>> know who have 20-30 yrs experience!
>>> 
>>> The kids at my school caused two of the older teachers to break down
>>> crying in their classrooms last year, and both quit teaching afterward.
>>> I
>>> had students say some shocking and horrible things to me when I first
>>> started but I just laughed it off. Once the kids realized that I wasn't
>>> going to get all emotional and lose my cool, they started to respect me
>>> and by the end of the school year they had come to like me.
>>> 
>>> My point is that you shouldn't let yourself get too emotional about your
>>> gear or about what people say on the internet. Leica is not a member of
>>> your family, it is not a friend, and it is not God. It is a business,
>>> and
>>> like all businesses, it exists to make money, not to care about you or
>>> your photography.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Chris Crawford
>>> Fine Art Photography
>>> Fort Wayne, Indiana
>>> 260-437-8990
>>> 
>>> http://www.chriscrawfordphoto.com My portfolio
>>> 
>>> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Christopher-Crawford/48229272798
>>> Become a fan on Facebook
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 7/2/13 1:46 PM, "Tina Manley" <images at comporium.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Thank you, Lluis. Your opinion means a lot to me. Being "just" a woman.
>>>> when I get emotional or angry, I cry. It's hard to explain to Tom why I
>>>> have been sitting at the computer all morning crying. I wrote the
>>> history
>>>> of my business to justify to myself and to him that I don't need to
>>>> excuses
>>>> or justifications or explanations ;-) ! I'm going to spend the
>>> afternoon
>>>> wallpapering and dancing!
>>>> 
>>>> Tina
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Lluis Ripoll
>>>> <lluisripollquerol at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> TINA,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I had no time to follow the discussion, and neither I wan't continue
>>> on
>>>>> it, I have other things where I want employ my time. Just read few
>>> from
>>>>> Ted
>>>>> and you now and I would like just to add two cents. You Tina, you
>>> don't
>>>>> need explain neither justify your work, we know it, and I say once
>>> more
>>>>> congratulations for this. It is not your fault if you have make
>>>>> business,
>>>>> this is the target many of us wanted, it is not your fault if Leica
>>> is
>>>>> maybe the best camera system ever made, everyone can do his own
>>> choice,
>>>>> it
>>>>> is not your fault if you have bought or not bought any lens in the
>>>>> latest
>>>>> years, you don't need justify anything, just continue showing and
>>>>> letting
>>>>> us continue enjoy your work.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you for all of this, you have been very kind telling us all
>>> these
>>>>> things
>>>>> 
>>>>> Saludos desde Barcelona!
>>>>> Lluis
>>>>> 
>>>>> El 02/07/2013, a las 17:38, Tina Manley escribi?:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> LEICA USERS GROUP -
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I have been a professional photographer since I incorporated my
>>>>> business
>>>>> in
>>>>>> 1980. I have worked really hard to make my business self-supporting
>>>>> and
>>>>> it
>>>>>> is. I worked for many years as a teacher until my photography
>>>>> business
>>>>>> began to bring in more money than teaching. I bought my first Leica
>>>>> M6
>>>>> in
>>>>>> 1989 because my old Minolta SRT101 would not hold up to the extreme
>>>>>> conditions of my trips throughout the developing world, where most
>>> of
>>>>> my
>>>>>> assignments were. I have used Leica M6, M4, M3, M2, M7, M8, M9 and
>>> MM
>>>>>> cameras. I have Leica M lenses from the 21 to the 135. All of my
>>>>> Leica
>>>>>> lenses are old. I have not bought a Leica M lens in many years. All
>>>>> of
>>>>> my
>>>>>> Leica cameras were bought and paid for with money from my business.
>>>>> As
>>>>>> digital cameras have improved, I have upgraded my Leica cameras.
>>> If I
>>>>> had
>>>>>> not had to switch to digital for business reasons, I would still be
>>>>> using
>>>>>> my Leica film cameras. None of my purchases were made for emotional
>>>>>> reasons. Leicas perform for me. I would not use them if they did
>>>>> not.
>>>>> I
>>>>>> have never had a Leica camera fail that Leica did not repair
>>> quickly,
>>>>>> sending me lenders overnight. I am sorry that the cameras are so
>>>>> expensive
>>>>>> but I do believe you get what you pay for. In my experience, Leicas
>>>>> are
>>>>>> worth what I pay for them. I have never used a Fuji camera or an
>>>>> Olympus.
>>>>>> I'm sure they are wonderful. I hated the Canons I used when I first
>>>>>> switched to digital. At this stage of my life, I am not interested
>>> in
>>>>>> switching systems. I am not interested in using medium format
>>> cameras
>>>>> and
>>>>>> cannot imagine carrying one to some of the places I travel. Leicas
>>>>> happen
>>>>>> to be the perfect cameras for me and my work. That's why I'm on a
>>>>> Leica
>>>>>> Users Group. If you hate Leicas, perhaps you should be on another
>>>>> group!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Tina
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Tina Manley
>>>>>> http://tina-manley.artistwebsites.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more
>>> information
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Tina Manley
>>>> http://tina-manley.artistwebsites.com
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information



In reply to: Message from chris at chriscrawfordphoto.com (Chris Crawford) ([Leica] Leica Cameras)