Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2013/05/26
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]For me, the larger sensor is not about making a giant print, more about choices in cropping. On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 1:29 AM, John McMaster <john at mcmaster.co.nz> wrote: > I would expect as good a print off a decent m4/3 or APS-C as I would 35mm > film (unless you want grain), digital FF is beyond most medium format film > IMO. > > john > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: lug-bounces+john=mcmaster.co.nz at leica-users.org [mailto:lug- > > bounces+john=mcmaster.co.nz at leica-users.org] On Behalf Of Mark Rabiner > > Sent: Sunday, 26 May 2013 6:20 p.m. > > To: Leica Users Group > > Subject: Re: [Leica] PESO: RG Lewis and Leica M frustrations > > > > If that were true there would have been a huge market for half frame film > > cameras before digital hit. There was none because the quality difference > > between half frame and full frame. And the slightly smaller camera body > > form you'd get with half frame was really not worth it. Full frame > cameras fit > > in your pocket. > > Most of the pre digital compact cameras were made with a 35mm cassette > > and > > 24x36 format so the end result was really in the more important ways not > all > > the different from a hulking SLR weighing 2 or 3 pounds. > > When you needed that big print you could get it with the camera you > pulled > > out of your pocket. > > > > The problem is in this digital age people think this carries over. > > They're going to just shoot with a compact camera and its just going to > be > > just fine like when they shot with their olupus XA or Rollei 35 or > Contax or > > Nikon. > > But oops the sensor is a fraction of the size! > > "Well who cameras I just want it to be cheap and fit in my pocket and > I'll buy > > a better one in two year's." > > > > Few people who shot 35mm film ever make 11x14's or 16x20s ever. > > But when they did need perhaps unexpended to make print of some real > > size they mare able to do it. > > Shoot with a compact with a much smaller size that 24x36 and that's not > going > > to be an option. That large print which you out of the blue need to > make will > > embarrass you. > > The fact is when your out shooting with a compact digital consumer > compact > > you're just not getting the shot. Sure its on your little web page or > gallery but > > realistically its just a shell game. You're really just pretending. Its > a jpeg. > > I say if you're going to drag yourself out somewhere and stand there and > do > > a photograph why not really do it? And not with a stupid toy camera? > > > > > > On 5/25/13 3:05 PM, "Richard S. Taylor" <r.s.taylor at comcast.net> > > wrote: > > > > > Steve - I agree with this completely. Sensor size is only relevant to > > > the size of print you want to make, the noise you can live with, and > > > the dynamic range you need. For much, maybe most of what I do, > > > micro-4/3rds is just fine even though I'm shooting mostly with a X > Pro-1 > > these days. > > > > > > I still think Leica missed the boat by not bringing out a very high > > > quality micro-4/3rds camera system. It would have been following in > > > the great tradition of the company. > > > > > > There may be some movement in the press towards trying smaller sensor > > sizes. > > > This year at the Boston Symphony concerts, the photographer covering > > > them for the Boston Globe has switched from a big DSLR in a even > > > larger wooden blimp to what looks to me to be a Panasonic GX-1 with a > > > long zoom and no blimp. It will be interesting to see if he returns > with it > > next year. > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 25, 2013, at 2:48 PM, Steve Barbour wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> On May 25, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Richard Taylor <r.s.taylor at > > >> comcast.net> > > wrote: > > >> > > >>> Well, as others have said, it's hard to imagine Leica competing with > > >>> themselves so FF is not a starter, I think. Fuji and others have > > >>> shown what can be done with APS-C so if the build and image quality > > >>> with M lenses were high, I might go for that price. > > >> > > >> Remember Dick that there is nothing sacred about going to "full > > >> frame" except (other things being equal) that bigger is better (sorta > > >> like film). So why stop at full frame ? When you get to full frame, > > >> you will still want a bigger sensor, and as the Sony RX1 has shown > > >> you can put a full frame sensor in a small camera body. And so it > > >> goes endlessly, unless at some point you say, I like my images just > the > > way they are. > > >> > > >> > > >> Steve > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Dick > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On May 25, 2013, at 12:23 PM, grduprey at mchsi.com wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> $3.5 K would not be acceptable for a APS-C camera, a FF camera > > >>>> would be another thing all together. > > >>>> > > >>>> Gene > > >>>> > > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > > >>>> From: "Richard Taylor" <r.s.taylor at comcast.net> > > >>>> To: "Leica Users Group" <lug at leica-users.org> > > >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 11:00:36 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada > > >>>> Central > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Leica] PESO: RG Lewis and Leica M frustrations > > >>>> > > >>>> I think Steve has it right. Unless the Mini proves to be a useable > > >>>> camera at an acceptable price, Leica will have truly and finally > > >>>> abandoned those of us looking for a practical tool in favor of the > gifters > > and collectors. > > >>>> > > >>>> Useable to my mind means that the camera has at least an APS-C > > >>>> sensor, a built-in EVF of a quality like that in the XE-1, and > > >>>> microlenses on the sensor to let us use M lenses with excellent > > >>>> image quality with or without an adapter. The anticipated price of > > >>>> about $3.5K would be in the acceptable range for me if the camera > met > > the other criteria. > > >>>> > > >>>> Dick > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On May 25, 2013, at 11:05 AM, Steve Barbour wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On May 25, 2013, at 7:21 AM, Geoff Hopkinson > > <hopsternew at gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> I don't know if this translates well. In Australia we call this > the " > > >>>>>> tall > > >>>>>> poppy syndrome". Some people enjoy taking swipes at anyone > > successful. > > >>>>>> Good > > >>>>>> on them. Of course it is in our interest too that Leica Camera > does > > well. > > >>>>>> They make products that some of us value a lot for the > > >>>>>> photographs that we can make with them and for the experience of > > >>>>>> using those products to achieve that, They can sell as much as > > >>>>>> they want to anyone that may value their products for whatever > > >>>>>> reason they wish. Why would you care if you value Leica for the > > >>>>>> photographs you can make? > > >>>>> > > >>>>> If at this time virtually all of the product is going to people > > >>>>> who don't make photographs, you can bet that I/we should care > > >>>>> about it. Of course it is impacting our ability to make photos > > >>>>> right now. But I don't think that you have answered my question. > > >>>>> The short run is already surely impacted as I have just noted. I > > >>>>> was asking about the longer run. What does this model predict in > > terms of future optical quality? > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I am now using a wonderful 1950's Leica Summicron 50/2 on a > > >>>>> Fujifilm XE-1 body, with a better experience and with better > > >>>>> results than with the latest Leica glass on my M9. Leica quality > > >>>>> clearly is already compromised, and their plan to sell expensive > > >>>>> gear to non users means that they are not currently giving > > >>>>> priority to the practical needs of professionals and discriminating > > users. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Steve > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> *Breathe in, breathe out, move on* -- Jimmy Buffett > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Cheers > > >>>>>> Geoff > > >>>>>> http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On 26 May 2013 00:04, Steve Barbour <steve.barbour at gmail.com> > > wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> On May 25, 2013, at 6:55 AM, Jayanand Govindaraj > > >>>>>>> <jayanand at gmail.com> > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Nathan, > > >>>>>>>> It has taken you a very long time to realize and accept this. I > > >>>>>>>> was sure > > >>>>>>> of > > >>>>>>>> the strategic shift in marketing with the M8 itself - it was so > > >>>>>>>> obvious > > >>>>>>>> - > > >>>>>>>> the marketing, the choice of magazines for advertisements, the > > >>>>>>> positioning, > > >>>>>>>> the advertorials, etc. With Blackstone's entrance, it was > > >>>>>>>> doubly obvious, especially when the ostensible reason for the > > >>>>>>>> investment was to spread > > >>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>> Leica Boutiques, not develop new products. IMHO, it is great > > >>>>>>>> for them, because as in all MOJO businesses, the margins are > > >>>>>>>> obscene, and as Joseph points out, there are enough people in > > >>>>>>>> the emerging world to pay for the bulk of the production (not > > >>>>>>>> only the M series but the S series as well). > > >>>>>>> It > > >>>>>>>> is not dissimilar to what the Bordeaux market has gone through > > >>>>>>>> in the > > >>>>>>> last > > >>>>>>>> few years, and what the Burgundy market is going through now - > > >>>>>>>> though I believe that over 50% of the bottles sold in China are > > >>>>>>>> fakes, because as > > >>>>>>> in > > >>>>>>>> all such markets, the labels matter (Mojo), not the intrinsic > > quality. > > >>>>>>>> It > > >>>>>>>> will be interesting to see what will happen to Leica as growth > > >>>>>>>> in China keeps slowing down, as is bound to happen. Remember, > > >>>>>>>> this will shaft the Russian market as well, because energy > > >>>>>>>> prices would nosedive. As far as > > >>>>>>> I > > >>>>>>>> can see, they have alienated most of their traditional > > >>>>>>>> clientele, bar a few, and I wonder where they would go to make > > >>>>>>>> up the volumes. They just > > >>>>>>> do > > >>>>>>>> not have a diversified enough customer base to withstand a big > > >>>>>>>> topline > > >>>>>>> hit. > > >>>>>>>> It is going to be interesting. The best thing for all of us > > >>>>>>>> would be if > > >>>>>>> all > > >>>>>>>> those unused Leicas in China come on the used market at the > > >>>>>>>> same time, as herd behaviour takes hold, and cause a glut > > >>>>>>>> there. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> I would look to a Leica IPO for Blackstone and Kaufmann to cash > > >>>>>>>> out > > >>>>>>> sooner > > >>>>>>>> rather than later, if growth in China keeps drifting down. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Jayanand, > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> jewelry for rich clients who don't use it, or who use it with > > >>>>>>> minimal knowledge of its qualities and capabilities, makes the > > >>>>>>> future sound rather ominous. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> What does this model predict in terms of future optical quality? > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Steve > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Cheers > > >>>>>>>> Jayanand > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Nathan Wajsman > > >>>>>>>> <photo at frozenlight.eu > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Right. So Leica has made a strategic shift from the > > >>>>>>>>> photography business to the jewelry business. Fair enough, the > > >>>>>>>>> Blackstone people obviously > > >>>>>>> know > > >>>>>>>>> where the money is. But then they should be up front about it > > >>>>>>>>> so that > > >>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>> photography dealers can switch their focus to companies that > > >>>>>>>>> actually > > >>>>>>> are > > >>>>>>>>> interested in supplying photographers. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Cheers, > > >>>>>>>>> Nathan > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Nathan Wajsman > > >>>>>>>>> Alicante, Spain > > >>>>>>>>> http://www.frozenlight.eu > > >>>>>>>>> http://www.greatpix.eu > > >>>>>>>>> PICTURE OF THE WEEK: http://www.fotocycle.dk/paws > > >>>>>>>>> Blog: http://nathansmusings.wordpress.com/ > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> YNWA > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> On May 25, 2013, at 2:28 PM, Joseph Yao wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Leica have been shipping sufficient quantities of the new > > >>>>>>>>>> M240. They > > >>>>>>> may > > >>>>>>>>>> not have been sending them to their 'traditional' markets > > >>>>>>>>>> where their > > >>>>>>>>> profit > > >>>>>>>>>> margins are lower. You will see plenty of M240 in, for > > >>>>>>>>>> example, > > >>>>>>> Beijing > > >>>>>>>>> and > > >>>>>>>>>> Shanghai, where the going rate for one is US$12,000 to > > US$13,000. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> A handful of limited production silver chrome MM have been > > >>>>>>>>>> made for the Chinese market, and available at RMB 1,581,000 > > >>>>>>>>>> each, approx. > > >>>>>>> US$258,280. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Joseph > > >>>>>>>>>> > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > -- Regards, Sonny http://sonc.com/look/ Natchitoches, Louisiana USA