[Leica] PESO: RG Lewis and Leica M frustrations

[john at mcmaster.co.nz (John McMaster)]

Non-rangefinder lenses usually focus closer and are available in longer 
focal lengths ;-) I know what you mean though, especially with flowers.

john

> -----Original Message-----
> On Behalf Of Sonny Carter
> 
> For me, the larger sensor is not about making a giant print, more about
> choices in cropping.
> 
> 
> On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 1:29 AM, John McMaster <john at mcmaster.co.nz>
> wrote:
> 
> > I would expect as good a print off a decent m4/3 or APS-C as I would
> > 35mm film (unless you want grain), digital FF is beyond most medium
> > format film IMO.
> >
> > john
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: lug-bounces+john=mcmaster.co.nz at leica-users.org [mailto:lug-
> > > bounces+john=mcmaster.co.nz at leica-users.org] On Behalf Of Mark
> > > bounces+Rabiner
> > > Sent: Sunday, 26 May 2013 6:20 p.m.
> > > To: Leica Users Group
> > > Subject: Re: [Leica] PESO: RG Lewis and Leica M frustrations
> > >
> > > If that were true there would have been a huge market for half frame
> > > film cameras before digital hit. There was none because the quality
> > > difference between half frame and full frame.  And the slightly
> > > smaller camera body form you'd get with half frame was really not
> > > worth it. Full frame
> > cameras fit
> > > in your pocket.
> > > Most of the pre digital compact cameras were made with a 35mm
> > > cassette and
> > > 24x36 format so the end result was really in the more important ways
> > > not
> > all
> > > the different from a  hulking SLR weighing 2 or 3 pounds.
> > > When you needed that big print you could get it with the camera you
> > pulled
> > > out of your pocket.
> > >
> > > The problem is in this digital age people think this carries over.
> > > They're going to just shoot with a compact camera and its just going
> > > to
> > be
> > > just fine like when they shot with their olupus XA or Rollei 35 or
> > Contax or
> > > Nikon.
> > > But oops the sensor is a fraction of the size!
> > > "Well who cameras I just want it to be cheap and fit in my pocket
> > > and
> > I'll buy
> > > a better one in two year's."
> > >
> > > Few people who shot 35mm film ever make 11x14's or 16x20s ever.
> > > But when they did need perhaps unexpended to make print of some real
> > > size they mare able to do it.
> > > Shoot with a compact with a much smaller size that 24x36 and that's
> > > not
> > going
> > > to be an option.  That large print which you out of the blue need to
> > make will
> > > embarrass you.
> > > The fact is when your out shooting with a compact digital consumer
> > compact
> > > you're just not getting the shot. Sure its on your little web page
> > > or
> > gallery but
> > > realistically  its just a shell game. You're really just pretending.
> > > Its
> > a jpeg.
> > > I say if you're going to drag yourself out somewhere and stand there
> > > and
> > do
> > > a photograph why not really do it? And not with a stupid toy camera?
> > >
> > >
> > > On 5/25/13 3:05 PM, "Richard S. Taylor" <r.s.taylor at comcast.net> 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Steve - I agree with this completely.  Sensor size is only
> > > > relevant to the size of print you want to make, the noise you can
> > > > live with, and the dynamic range you need.  For much, maybe most
> > > > of what I do, micro-4/3rds is just fine even though I'm shooting
> > > > mostly with a X
> > Pro-1
> > > these days.
> > > >
> > > > I still think Leica missed the boat by not bringing out a very
> > > > high quality micro-4/3rds camera system.  It would have been
> > > > following in the great tradition of the company.
> > > >
> > > > There may be some movement in the press towards trying smaller
> > > > sensor
> > > sizes.
> > > > This year at the Boston Symphony concerts, the photographer
> > > > covering them for the Boston Globe has switched from a big DSLR in
> > > > a even larger wooden blimp to what looks to me to be a Panasonic
> > > > GX-1 with a long zoom and no blimp.  It will be interesting to see
> > > > if he returns
> > with it
> > > next year.
> > > >
> > > > Dick
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On May 25, 2013, at 2:48 PM, Steve Barbour wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >> On May 25, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Richard Taylor
> > > >> <r.s.taylor at comcast.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Well, as others have said, it's hard to imagine Leica competing
> > > >>> with themselves so FF is not a starter, I think.  Fuji and
> > > >>> others have shown what can be done with APS-C so if the build
> > > >>> and image quality with M lenses were high, I might go for that 
> > > >>> price.
> > > >>
> > > >> Remember Dick that there is nothing sacred about going to "full
> > > >> frame" except (other things being equal) that bigger is better
> > > >> (sorta like film). So why stop at full frame  ? When you get to
> > > >> full frame, you will still want a bigger sensor, and as the Sony
> > > >> RX1 has shown you can put a full frame sensor in a small camera
> > > >> body. And so it goes endlessly, unless at some point you say, I
> > > >> like my images just
> > the
> > > way they are.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Steve
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Dick
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On May 25, 2013, at 12:23 PM, grduprey at mchsi.com wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> $3.5 K would not be acceptable for a APS-C camera, a FF camera
> > > >>>> would be another thing all together.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Gene
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >>>> From: "Richard Taylor" <r.s.taylor at comcast.net>
> > > >>>> To: "Leica Users Group" <lug at leica-users.org>
> > > >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 11:00:36 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada
> > > >>>> Central
> > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Leica] PESO: RG Lewis and Leica M frustrations
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I think Steve has it right.  Unless the Mini proves to be a
> > > >>>> useable camera at an acceptable price, Leica will have truly
> > > >>>> and finally abandoned those of us looking for a practical tool
> > > >>>> in favor of the
> > gifters
> > > and collectors.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Useable to my mind means that the camera has at least an APS-C
> > > >>>> sensor, a built-in EVF of a quality like that in the XE-1, and
> > > >>>> microlenses on the sensor to let us use M lenses with excellent
> > > >>>> image quality with or without an adapter.  The anticipated
> > > >>>> price of about $3.5K would be in the acceptable range for me if
> > > >>>> the camera
> > met
> > > the other criteria.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Dick
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On May 25, 2013, at 11:05 AM, Steve Barbour wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> On May 25, 2013, at 7:21 AM, Geoff Hopkinson
> > > <hopsternew at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> I don't know if this translates well. In Australia we call
> > > >>>>>> this
> > the "
> > > >>>>>> tall
> > > >>>>>> poppy syndrome". Some people enjoy taking swipes at anyone
> > > successful.
> > > >>>>>> Good
> > > >>>>>> on them. Of course it is in our interest too that Leica
> > > >>>>>> Camera
> > does
> > > well.
> > > >>>>>> They make products that some of us value a lot for the
> > > >>>>>> photographs that we can make with them and for the
> experience
> > > >>>>>> of using those products to achieve that, They can sell as
> > > >>>>>> much as they want to anyone that may value their products for
> > > >>>>>> whatever reason they wish. Why would you care if you value
> > > >>>>>> Leica for the photographs you can make?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> If at this time virtually all of the product is going to
> > > >>>>> people who don't make photographs, you can bet that I/we
> > > >>>>> should care about it. Of course it is impacting our ability to
> > > >>>>> make photos right now. But I don't think that you have answered
> my question.
> > > >>>>> The short run is already surely impacted as I have just noted.
> > > >>>>> I was asking about the longer run. What does this model
> > > >>>>> predict in
> > > terms of future optical quality?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I am now using a wonderful 1950's Leica Summicron 50/2 on a
> > > >>>>> Fujifilm XE-1 body, with a better experience and with better
> > > >>>>> results than with the latest Leica glass on my M9. Leica
> > > >>>>> quality clearly is already compromised, and their plan to sell
> > > >>>>> expensive gear to non users means that they are not currently
> > > >>>>> giving priority to the practical needs of professionals and
> > > >>>>> discriminating
> > > users.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Steve
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> *Breathe in, breathe out, move on* -- Jimmy Buffett
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Cheers
> > > >>>>>> Geoff
> > > >>>>>> http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> On 26 May 2013 00:04, Steve Barbour
> <steve.barbour at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> On May 25, 2013, at 6:55 AM, Jayanand Govindaraj
> > > >>>>>>> <jayanand at gmail.com>
> > > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Nathan,
> > > >>>>>>>> It has taken you a very long time to realize and accept
> > > >>>>>>>> this. I was sure
> > > >>>>>>> of
> > > >>>>>>>> the strategic shift in marketing with the M8 itself - it
> > > >>>>>>>> was so obvious
> > > >>>>>>>> -
> > > >>>>>>>> the marketing, the choice of magazines for advertisements,
> > > >>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>> positioning,
> > > >>>>>>>> the advertorials, etc. With Blackstone's entrance, it was
> > > >>>>>>>> doubly obvious, especially when the ostensible reason for
> > > >>>>>>>> the investment was to spread
> > > >>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>> Leica Boutiques, not develop new products. IMHO, it is
> > > >>>>>>>> great for them, because as in all MOJO businesses, the
> > > >>>>>>>> margins are obscene, and as Joseph points out, there are
> > > >>>>>>>> enough people in the emerging world to pay for the bulk of
> > > >>>>>>>> the production (not only the M series but the S series as 
> > > >>>>>>>> well).
> > > >>>>>>> It
> > > >>>>>>>> is not dissimilar to what the Bordeaux market has gone
> > > >>>>>>>> through in the
> > > >>>>>>> last
> > > >>>>>>>> few years, and what the Burgundy market is going through
> > > >>>>>>>> now - though I believe that over 50% of the bottles sold in
> > > >>>>>>>> China are fakes, because as
> > > >>>>>>> in
> > > >>>>>>>> all such markets, the labels matter (Mojo), not the
> > > >>>>>>>> intrinsic
> > > quality.
> > > >>>>>>>> It
> > > >>>>>>>> will be interesting to see what will happen to Leica as
> > > >>>>>>>> growth in China keeps slowing down, as is bound to happen.
> > > >>>>>>>> Remember, this will shaft the Russian  market as well,
> > > >>>>>>>> because energy prices would nosedive. As far as
> > > >>>>>>> I
> > > >>>>>>>> can see, they have alienated most of their traditional
> > > >>>>>>>> clientele, bar a few, and I wonder where they would go to
> > > >>>>>>>> make up the volumes. They just
> > > >>>>>>> do
> > > >>>>>>>> not have a diversified enough customer base to withstand a
> > > >>>>>>>> big topline
> > > >>>>>>> hit.
> > > >>>>>>>> It is going to be interesting. The best thing for all of us
> > > >>>>>>>> would be if
> > > >>>>>>> all
> > > >>>>>>>> those unused Leicas in China come on the used market at the
> > > >>>>>>>> same time, as herd behaviour takes hold, and cause a glut
> > > >>>>>>>> there.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> I would look to a Leica IPO for Blackstone and Kaufmann to
> > > >>>>>>>> cash out
> > > >>>>>>> sooner
> > > >>>>>>>> rather than later, if growth in China keeps drifting down.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Jayanand,
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> jewelry for rich clients who don't use it, or who use it
> > > >>>>>>> with minimal knowledge of its qualities and capabilities,
> > > >>>>>>> makes the future sound rather ominous.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> What does this model predict in terms of future optical 
> > > >>>>>>> quality?
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Steve
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Cheers
> > > >>>>>>>> Jayanand
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Nathan Wajsman
> > > >>>>>>>> <photo at frozenlight.eu
> > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> Right. So Leica has made a strategic shift from the
> > > >>>>>>>>> photography business to the jewelry business. Fair enough,
> > > >>>>>>>>> the Blackstone people obviously
> > > >>>>>>> know
> > > >>>>>>>>> where the money is. But then they should be up front about
> > > >>>>>>>>> it so that
> > > >>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>> photography dealers can switch their focus to companies
> > > >>>>>>>>> that actually
> > > >>>>>>> are
> > > >>>>>>>>> interested in supplying photographers.
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > > >>>>>>>>> Nathan
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> Nathan Wajsman
> > > >>>>>>>>> Alicante, Spain
> > > >>>>>>>>> http://www.frozenlight.eu
> > > >>>>>>>>> http://www.greatpix.eu
> > > >>>>>>>>> PICTURE OF THE WEEK: http://www.fotocycle.dk/paws
> > > >>>>>>>>> Blog: http://nathansmusings.wordpress.com/
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> YNWA
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> On May 25, 2013, at 2:28 PM, Joseph Yao wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Leica have been shipping sufficient quantities of the new
> > > >>>>>>>>>> M240.  They
> > > >>>>>>> may
> > > >>>>>>>>>> not have been sending them to their 'traditional' markets
> > > >>>>>>>>>> where their
> > > >>>>>>>>> profit
> > > >>>>>>>>>> margins are lower.  You will see plenty of M240 in, for
> > > >>>>>>>>>> example,
> > > >>>>>>> Beijing
> > > >>>>>>>>> and
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Shanghai, where the going rate for one is US$12,000 to
> > > US$13,000.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> A handful of limited production silver chrome MM have
> > > >>>>>>>>>> been made for the Chinese market, and available at RMB
> > > >>>>>>>>>> 1,581,000 each, approx.
> > > >>>>>>> US$258,280.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Joseph
> > > >>>>>>>>>>