Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 1996/11/18

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Subject: Re: R4, R4S
From: pgs@thillana.lcs.mit.edu (Patrick Sobalvarro)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 22:31:42 -0500

   From: seungmin@luxmail.luxcom.com
   Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 14:28:05 PST

   Somebody said that R4S had been as problematic as the earlier R4, 
   which is quite opposite to what I have been hearing from the dealers.  
   According to them, R4S should be fine because Leica simplified the R4 
   to R4S by taking Programmed and Shutter-priority modes off.  These two 
   modes were causing a bunch of problems in the electronic circuits.

   As far as I know, R4S-P is basically the same as R4S with a little 
   more advancements.  Also all the R4's manufactured after Leica 
   introduced R4S-P should be no problem if Leica fixed R4 problems on 
   R4S-P.  Any comments on this would be appreciated.

This should go in the FAQ, which we will all write when we have more
spare time.

I have read up on the R4 reliability issue fairly extensively, in most
of the published books about Leicas and various "buyers' guides," as
well as following mailing lists and newsgroups.  Here is a summary of
what I figured out:

0. The R4 and its two variants, the R4s and the R4s Mod P (called the
   R4s Mod 2 in Europe), were in production for eight years.  That's a
   long time.  As most Leica amateurs will be aware, Leica often make
   internal changes to its products without external announcements.
   Furthermore, some of these changes are "silent recalls," in that
   service facilities will replace problematic parts in cameras sent
   in for unrelated repairs.  This confuses attempts to differentiate
   on the basis of serial number the models that are and aren't
   reliable.

1. When Leica (then Leitz, but I'll just call them Leica) first
   introduced the R4 in the early 80's, its electronics, manufactured
   by the British firm Ferranti, were unreliable.  Repairs performed
   by Leica _at that time_ did not result in more reliable cameras --
   in fact, many users reported sending the same camera in for repairs
   many times.

   Many sane, intelligent people who do not hate Leica have
   corroborated this.  It seems clear that the electronics were simply
   very unreliable, and Leica management did not own up to this
   publicly, and Leica failed to come up with a cure for some time.
   Of course, they could have done worse.  They could have chosen
   Lucas instead of Ferranti.

2. A couple of years later, Leica introduced the R4s, a cheaper
   version of the R4 with fewer features.  I have not heard any
   reports that R4s models suffered from the same reliability problems
   that R4 models did, but they might have.

3. Sometime around the mid-80's, R4 models became much more reliable,
   so that some sane, intelligent people who do not necessarily love
   all things Leica have reported using these cameras heavily under
   adverse circumstances and finding them quite reliable.  It is
   possible that this time was exactly when the R4s was introduced,
   but possibly it was earlier or later.

4. Leica introduced the R4s Mod P (or Mod 2) in the late eighties.  I
   have never heard any accounts that this camera is unreliable.

5. Some "buyers' guides" claim that one can avoid defective R4
   variants by buying only models whose first two serial numbers are
   "16" and greater.  These "buyers' guides," which claim to offer
   expert advice on buying used cameras of all makes, also often make
   demonstrably inaccurate claims about Leicas and other makes, so I
   regard their blanket statements on matters like these as less than
   entirely reliable.  Some people claim that R4 variants with serial
   numbers beginning with "15" and greater are reliable.  No one seems
   to know for sure when the unreliable parts were replaced except
   Leica, and it seems unlikely that Leica will tell us.

6. I have never heard any accounts of a Leica R4 variant needing
   repeated repairs by Leica now, in the nineties.  Presumably service
   centers no longer stock the unreliable parts, so a recently fixed
   R4 variant might well be as reliable as a late R4 variant.  But
   private service facilities might still have stocks of defective
   parts from the early eighties, and might still employ them,
   although I do not know of any evidence that this is so.

7. Since I started paying attention a few years ago, I haven't heard
   anyone say "I bought a Leica R4 variant this year, and the thing
   broke and had to go to the shop."  Maybe the unreliable R4 variants
   have mostly been fixed already.  Maybe not.

In answer to your other question: the R4s was missing two program
modes present on the R4 and, very importantly for some of us, was
missing the little window in the viewfinder that lets one see the
manually-set shutter speed.  The R4s Mod P (Mod 2) got that little
window back and also got some improvements to external controls: the
wind lever is fully encased in plastic and the exposure compensation
knob is larger, both as on the R5, R6, R7, and their variants.  Leica
service in New Jersey will upgrade the R4s to show the manually set
shutter speed in the viewfinder (like the R4s Mod P) for $275.
Presumably this just involves installing Mod P parts.  Probably a good
private Leica shop could do it more cheaply (and quickly).

Personal experience note: for a year, I had a Leica R4s that worked
like a clock under heavy use in places like the Great Salt Lake.  Its
first two serial numbers were "16".  I sold it because I really just
wanted a second R6, so I got one when I could afford it.

If I wanted to get a Leica SLR with automatic modes cheaply, and I
didn't need mirror pre-release, I'd buy a Leica R4s.  I don't consider
it a risky buy.

- -Patrick Sobalvarro