Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2000/07/10

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Subject: Re: [Leica] Re: LHSA M6 Question/Complaint (!!!)
From: Robert Jagitsch <robertj@powerlogix.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:27:32 -0500
References: <37.75b76e0.269ba910@aol.com> <4.1.20000710180722.01fb4100@gateway.photoaccess.com> <v04220803b59035e9b3b0@[24.93.60.3]> <396AA4B8.BEF99B1B@CameraQuest.com>

At 9:38 PM -0700 7/10/00, Stephen Gandy wrote:
>Robert, I agree with you its not fair, but I think you are making a 
>big deal over
>something  trivial.   With the available information, it does not 
>appear anyone or
>any organization set out intentionally to take advantage of you. 
>Life is seldom
>fair, and this LHSA  M6 ordering issue is no exception.

Stephen,
Thanks for your comments. We have done business and I think highly of 
you and your CamerQuest site. We will continue to do business! But 
we'll disagree on this a little.

I am not saying that anyone set out to take advantage. I am saying 
that an error was made, I think it is acceptable to think that people 
should admit their mistakes, and then we can move on.

Imagine if something along these lines happened with Ford or 
BMW....if there were thousands of customers who prepaid for 
something, anything, with a long lead time, only to find that others 
who waited or were otherwise 'lucky' got a better deal that didn't 
require prepayment. All because of inattention to detail.

(There have been much more 'trivial' situations in the past that have 
resulted in FTC problems and class actions. Seems like once a month I 
get something in the mail regarding a class action. Last month I got 
a free  40 minute Sprint phone card, due to some sort of misleading 
Sprint advertising.)

The $45 issue is trivial. $2740 is not trivial.

If I had known up front that it would take six months I would have 
said no to a prepay. (And, keep in mind, when I ordered, there were 
people who already had received their cameras so it sure didn't look 
like it would take long at all.)


>
>I set up the CameraQuest LHSA M6 page and order form because the 
>LHSA site  had NO
>LHSA M6 ordering information.  It was even having problems simply 
>staying up -- it
>kept crashing.    Eventually LHSA  linked to my page.
>
>So far as I know, the CameraQuest page  was the first time the  LHSA M6 was
>offered to non-LHSA members.  I thought it very strange that neither the Leica
>site nor the LHSA site was advertising the Black Paint LHSA M6 on 
>the web.      It
>was my idea to do the CameraQuest LHSA M6 page so non-members could order the
>camera and become LHSA members.  I  asked Bill Rosauer if a LHSA M6 
>page would be
>OK, he said yes,  and he approved the page before it was linked or 
>announced.  I
>did it as a public service to get the word out to non-LHSA members. 
>I received
>no remuneration of any kind whatsoever for LHSA sales made from my site.


I was aware you were doing it gratis. And I commend you for it. I 
hope it brought a lot of traffic to your site.

To me this reflects on something I said earlier: these should have 
been released through dealers to begin with. That is the normal 
distribution channel. To have a non-profit organization try to become 
a reseller, with virtually no staff, is inviting trouble. That's 
exactly what occurred, simply because non-profits are non-profits. 
Non-profit orgs don't know the first thing about advertising or 
marketing or order processing, either.  Even if they have someone who 
does, they rarely have the staff to implement things.

>
>Since the LHSA M6 was originally intended to be sold only to LHSA members, non
>members had to join in order to buy it, which meant the $45 annual fee.   Not
>charging memberships to to new members would be unfair to existing 
>LHSA members.

That's exactly what's happening now, free memberships.


>After all, existing LHSA members had already paid the $45 membership 
>fee.  Sale
>terms, ie payment with order, was on the LHSA order form.     I am 
>not sure how
>many bought the camera from my site, but I am sure many people 
>bought it from my
>site that otherwise would not have even known of the camera, since 
>they were not
>LHSA members.


I agree. I was one, and I have heard from several others in my exact 
situation. Most of the emails I have gotten agree with me completely, 
many have stated "I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels this way! 
I'm glad you stepped up and said something about it!"


>
>It later became known that Leica was selling the LHSA M6 through dealers, and
>paying for the membership.  Exactly how this came about, or the 
>exact timing, I
>have no idea.
>
>Perhaps I should have scanned the entire LHSA brochure for my site, 
>but I didn't.

This should have been on the LHSA order form, you couldn't possibly 
be responsible for making sure the brochure was there and all the 
wording accurate, especially if you are posting the form as a service.


>As a result the info about a possible delivery date later in the 
>year was missing
>on my site.

It's missing from the order confirmation as well. You posted what 
they gave you, assuming it was accurate.



>On the other hand, you could have asked questions on delivery times
>before you ordered, if this was such an important issue with you.


The delivery time per se isn't the issue. It's the fact that my money 
is tied up, and the fact that LHSA should address this issue 
directly, admit their mistake, and learn from their experience so the 
special edition M7 doesn't see the same kinds of problems. :)

That's ultimately what its all about. I have a lot of things on my 
plate. I could have just been irritated and left it at that. But 
maybe the same thing would have happened the next time. That's all 
anyone can do in life, is learn from mistakes. That's what I try to 
do. I might not make the same mistake twice; I just keep making new 
ones. :)


>
>Personally I think whatever organization is responsible for including the LHSA
>membership with the LHSA M6 in dealership sales, is the organization 
>you should
>address on getting the $45 LHSA membership credit from.    It 
>appears your problem
>on this issue is with Leica, not LHSA -- though I admit I am not sure.

>
>Have you emailed your complaints to Solms ?  Your money will eventually end up
>there, if it is not there already.  Perhaps Leica will take 
>responsibility, since
>apparently  the original plan was NOT to sell the LHSA M6 through 
>dealerships.  As
>a side note,  Leica is not the first, nor likely the last, camera 
>manufacturer to
>change plans on commemorative cameras.  Last year many Nikon F5 
>Anniversary owners
>were upset to find an extra 1000 cameras were being added to the original 2000
>cameras,  due to high customer demand.   Alas, there was no fine 
>print on the LHSA
>brochure saying Leica  would not sell the cameras through dealers.


I dont' know as we'll ever know who made the decisions. To me, I 
ordered from LHSA. They got the money, so they are the responsible 
party.

>
>Your posting was the first I've heard of the $100 Leica discount 
>coupon.  It seems
>Leica and LHSA did at least try a goodwill gesture to LHSA members, 
>old and new
>alike.


Yes, a nice freebie. I have seen this on the various ebay auctions 
from Leica dealers selling the LHSA, too.

>
>Strangely enough I got a phone call  this morning from someone 
>wanting  to order
>the LHSA M6.  I told him it was too late,  the order for deadlines being June
>30th.   He didn't say so, but he was not at all pleased and didn't 
>seem to think
>the cut off of orders was fair.    You can probably sell your LHSA 
>M6 reservation
>to someone who missed the deadline,  if all of this really bothers you that
>much.   I hope however, that once the camera does arrive, and once 
>it appreciates
>over the years as a valuable collectible and as a fine shooter, you will think
>that all the trouble was well worth it.

Tell him to call Map Camera in Tokyo, there is one there for $4500, 
on the shelf. :)

Best,
Robert


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In reply to: Message from Gaifana@aol.com (Re: [Leica] LHSA M6 Question/Complaint (!!!))
Message from Jim Brick <jimbrick@photoaccess.com> ([Leica] Re: LHSA M6 Question/Complaint (!!!))
Message from Robert Jagitsch <robertj@powerlogix.com> ([Leica] Re: LHSA M6 Question/Complaint (!!!))
Message from Stephen Gandy <Stephen@CameraQuest.com> (Re: [Leica] Re: LHSA M6 Question/Complaint (!!!))