Re: [Leica] Leica IIIc/LTM lenses/Jupiter...

["Dan Post" <dpost@triad.rr.com>]

Pablo-
If you are serious about the LTM Leicas, I am sure the IIIc is a good start,
but my guru tells me that the IIIc went through so many incarnations from
its inception around 1940 until the IIIf came out in about 1952, that some
models are almost completely different cameras wearing the same marque!
The first made history by having a cast chassis instead of one built up from
pieces of brass that were for the most part screwed together. This made a
slightly larger camera, i tad bit heavier, and more robust, though My IIIb
seems sturdy enough! The hard aluminum shell seems to cover a multitude of
weaknesses. I heard that Leica at one time bought their shutter curtain
material from Kodak, and Kodak did have plants in Stuttgart where the famous
Retina was made. When the war broke out, some Leicas had the famous 'red
curtains' for a period, but they tended to leak light, especially with color
film, and then Leica apparently resourced their curtains and went to a black
fabric again, but cameras made during and immediately after the war have
curtains that in my experience almost universally need to be replaced now-
$150-200 usually.
Later, when they made cameras for the military, they made some with the ball
bearings on one end of the shutter mechanism shaft for use in cold weather,
where the standard lubricant would stiffen to the extent that the shutters
fail to perform.
After the war, the Leitz company made cameras by the thousands in oder to
pay war reparations. They made more in the three thears immediately after
the war than they had made in all previous year, and they were forced to use
a lot of unskilled workers, they were strapped for 'strategic' material,
like chrome, and so many IIIc bodies after the war were of mixed quality and
build, and they often have peeling chrome plating, hence they are CHEAP!
Later in the IIIc's life, they started to add the ball bearings again, so
some late IIIc will have ball bearing on one end of the affected shaft, a
feature that was carried into the IIIf manufacturing; it seems that some of
the very last IIIcs had a lot of IIIf features since they were exhausting
their inventory of parts! The IIIf BDis a much better user, but the IIIf RD
is even better as I believe it has ball bearing on both ends of the shutter
shaft, and the shutter box is made os a lighter, faster material so it is
smoother, and quieter. There is a world of difference between my IIIf RD and
the IIIc I had, though the IIIc I had was a later model, and pretty good
itself. My IIIf, at least this one, is almost as quiet as my M3 or M6, and
is a very nice user camera.
I made sure I got one WITHOUT the Delayed Action/ Self Timer. I found out
that this is a feature that is loved by the collector, but not often used by
the serious photographer, and over use or playing with the ST can cause
significantly greater wear on the shutter mechanism, which in turn can make
it hard to adjust to specs.
So, all things being equal- if you want a IIIc, get a late one with a serial
number over 460K, or a IIIf BD. If you can afford to wait, get a nice clean
IIIf RD without the DA, and have a CLA done on it, and you'll have a real
keeper! Even if the RF is weak, the beamsplitter can be replaced, and it's a
lot cheaper than haveing an M3 or M2 prism re-cemented, or replaced!!--- and
the camera is almost as accurate, and once you get used to the RF/VF setup-
you'll be surprised how often, as you head to the door, and reach for a
camera, that your hand will close on the IIIf!!!!
Dan (Hopelessly romantic, retro old fool!) POst
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Dory" <dorysrus@mindspring.com>
To: <leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Leica] Leica IIIc/LTM lenses/Jupiter...


> Pablo, the first paragraph indicated that the shutters in the newer
leica's
> used more ball bearings in the shutters so less drag, more reliability,
less
> shutter bounce, generally a better unit.  Also, supposedly, the shutters
in
> the "red dial" are improved over the "black dial" on the IIIf models.
>
> Generally, LTM lenses are cheaper than M lenses as many people have
migrated
> to the M and don't realize that their old lenses will work just fine with
an
> adapter.  The older lenses are also less expensive as the glasses used as
> well as the coatings of the early 50's lenses were very soft and prone to
> scratching.  Depending on the severity and/or how much you shoot into the
> light the scratches and other flaws of old age may not matter.  Also, if
you
> find one cheap enough then you can afford to have a lens cleaned,
polished,
> and re-coated which is $100-$200 in the US, probably less expensive
> elsewhere.
>
> The Jupiter lenses can be the old Zeiss designs from the thirties with
> modern coatings up to multi-coating on the very last production.
Production
> tolerances were very large so I've found buying in person to be the best
> recourse.  Price wise the Soviet lenses can be steals, I've seen the 50mm
> F1.5 Sonnar  in Soviet clothing in the $50 range; although I paid around
> $100 for mine in very clean condition.  Optically, it is a very
satisfactory
> lens especially with older 400 speed films like Tri-X or HP-5.  When I go
to
> the newer, slower films I miss the extra detail that the newer Leica glass
> delivers.  Now that the archives are running again there has been much
> comment about the Russian lenses.  Also, you might purchase a book on LTM
> lenses available from a certain prominent member of this list; also in the
> archives. :)
>
> I find the collapsible Summicrons to be a great choice for the III series
> cameras: if you find it hard to remember to pull the lens out then the
> Jupiter 3(50mm F1.5) is almost as small and may be less flare prone.
>
> Don Dory
> dorysrus@mindspring.com
>
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