Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2004/09/20
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]I agree BD, it's too bad that refusal to consume doesn't work with the unfairly high cost of prescription drugs. Jim B. D. Colen wrote: > I know this is true, Frank. But it would seem there is a tipping point, > beyond which R&D recovery becomes piracy - and beyond which consumers > will cease to consume. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org > [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of > Frank Dernie > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 3:48 PM > To: Leica Users Group > Subject: Re: Digital M/Digital Rebel was Re: [Leica] Lost Faith in Leica > > > I was questioning Scott actually, but to take your points the vast bulk > of the cost of a new product is the development and tooling. To remain > in business this has to be paid for out of the sale price. Typical mass > produced goods such as cars and hifi have a manufacturing cost about > 1/10 retail, ie 90% of what you may goes back to cover marketing, > engineering, tooling, distribution, profit etc.. > In the case of typical small market volume items it has to be more than > this because the market will be tiny. That is what Leica are up against > and I am surprised they can survive. > Frank > > > On 20 Sep, 2004, at 19:53, B. D. Colen wrote: > > >>First off, Frank, I didn't say that I expected a digital M to be >>priced the same as a film M; I expect a digital M to come in somewhere > > >>between $4500 and 7K - which is completely and utterly outrageous. >> >>There is no reason why a digital M should cost more - in fact it >>should cost less - than cameras such as the Canon EOS MKII, or the >>Nikon DX...In fact, the digital M should cost less as it doesn't have >>to provide autofocus, doesn't have to provide the matrix metering, >>etc. etc. And at this point the CCDs are, or can be, off the shelf >>items. Keep in mind the Epson R-D1 is selling for $2500 - same price >>as an M7. While there's no question it isn't built like an M 7, that >>does beg the question why an digital M couldn't come in at $3500. >> >>We've all gotten so used to paying caviar prices for Leica equipment >>that we sometimes begin to believe that the prices are justified. ;-) >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org >>[mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf >>Of Frank Dernie >>Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 2:33 PM >>To: Leica Users Group; scott@adrenaline.com >>Subject: Re: Digital M/Digital Rebel was Re: [Leica] Lost Faith in >>Leica >> >> >>I am curious how you think a digital M could be sold for the same >>price as a film M. Not only does all the R&D have to be amortised, but > > >>where there is currently just a pressure plate there will have to be a > > >>(very) expensive sensor and all the electronics to make it all work. >>Dream on! Frank >> >> >>On 20 Sep, 2004, at 00:03, Scott McLoughlin wrote: >> >> >>>Roger what B.D. said. APS sensor at 6MP or so with >>>good noise control at higher ISO (IMHO, 800 has to >>>be very, very usable) is just fine. Just let the customers get used >>>to the crop, tell them which lenses just won't work and get something > > >>>out the door. Hi megapix count is just a distraction, and full frame > > >>>ain't gonna happen at anything but a stratospheric price point. >>> >>>I think by putting off an RF M for so long, Leica's just raising the >>>bar higher and higher for itself, setting up customers for an >>>eventual >> >>>let down. For digital, the product cycle has to more than one or two >>>designs per decade. >>> >>>RD-1 is a first data point in a digital M body. It's too pricey for >>>what it is, but it shows everybody that a company can get such a body > > >>>out the door without moving heaven and earth or like heroics. >>> >>>FWIW, I believe the "price-point" for an APS sensor digi >>>M is about what the film bodies cost today: $2,700 USD. Anything >>>more, >> >>>and only the collectors and fondlers will buy them. At a much higher > > >>>price than the current M's, Leica faithful shooters (and M newbies) >>>will buy M7's and MP's for shooting film, but go elsewhere for >>>digital >> >>>wants/ needs. >>> >>>Again, just IMHO. I guess we'll have to wait 2 years to >>>find out :-) >>> >>> >>>B. D. Colen wrote: >>> >>> >>>>What would be the point? Quite simply the point would be to use them > > >>>>with whatever crop factor is necessary. I can think of allot worse >>>>things than having the 35 Summilux ASPH morph into what might be the > > >>>>world's best 50 mm lens. ;-) >>>> >>>>And don't put any money on the image quality of the digital M being >>>>any better than that of the Nikon D70 or the Digital Rebel. It's the >> >>build >> >>>>that sucks on those two, not the image quality. >>>> >>>>Oh, P.S. Leica has not for years been the company we all so fondly >>>>remember as E. Leitz, and some of our memories of that company may >>>>be >> >>>>a bit too nostalgia clouded as it is. >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org >>>>[mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf > > >>>>Of Jonathan Borden >>>>Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 5:44 PM >>>>To: Leica Users Group >>>>Subject: Digital M/Digital Rebel was Re: [Leica] Lost Faith in Leica >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>B. D. Colen wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>This just in from Mars: >>>>>I would buy a digital M - IF it was price-point competitive with >>>>>Canon >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>and Nikon bodies offering the same image quality. In other words, >>>>>if Leica produces a digital M for about $3K to 4K, that is >>>>>comparable in image quality, megp count, etc., to a Canon Rebel or >>>>>Nikon D70, I >> >>>>>wouldn't buy it. If, however, they produce a 10+ megp digital M >>>>>that >> >>>>>compares to the high end Canons or Nikons, I would indeed buy it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>Amen. >>>> >>>>Of course if they made a digital M that was of the quality of a >>>>Digital Rebel then the company formerly known as E. Leitz will have >>>>entirely ceased to exist. >>>> >>>>My hope is that they are being properly anally compulsive and >>>>delaying the digital M until a 10mp+ sensor can be made that works >>>>well with the current crop of wide angle M lenses ... otherwise what > > >>>>would be the point of a digital M? >>>> >>>>Jonathan >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Leica Users Group. >>>>See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Leica Users Group. >>>>See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Leica Users Group. >>>See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Leica Users Group. >>See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Leica Users Group. >>See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >