Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2004/10/01
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]Hey, Simon...The statement anyone makes with branded accessories is..."Look at me"...If one owns a Ferrari, and one really owns it because one loves fast, hot cars, one doesn't need all the branded accessories. On the other hand, if one owns it to make up for some deficiency, then wants to yell to the world, "Look at me! I am really, really hot shit!! I can afford to own a ...Ferrari/Leica/Rollex/case of Budweiser... ;-)" I have always avoided branded stuff...Either I like and need the item, or I don't... This really is one of those amusing, ironic, LUG moments...Because I can remember all the discussion over the years that could be summed up with the line, to paraphrase James Carvil..."It's the glass, stupid!" People on this list have always told us that a body is just a box onto which one mounts the incomparable Leica glass. So if some other manufacturer can give me a really good quality M mount body, which will take my 35 Summ ASPH, or my 28 Summicron ASPH, great! I'd rather save $500 or $1K on the body and be able to put it into film or glass. Bottom line - Anyone who would even think about what other people would think if they saw a Noctilux - or any other lens - on a less expensive body - is more concerned about their own image than about the images the lens produces. ;-) -----Original Message----- From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of animal Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 4:55 AM To: Leica Users Group Subject: Re: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon Hi, B.D. Well a lot of literature states that a retrofocus design like that of the Schneider? R lens is better suited in principle but i dont know for sure. The way people make statements with their acessories cannot be ignored i mean Ferrari owners don,t make a statement with their driving skills do they? simon ----- Original Message ----- From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net> To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 11:05 PM Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon > Hi, Simon - Obviously I don't know the answer to the last question, > although someone earlier suggested that the Zeiss designs might indeed > be better suited to use with digital sensor cropping. No, I wouldn't > expect Leica people will switch - why should they? The question is > whether Zeiss can grow the market. As to mount a Noct on a Zeiss and > what kind of statement does it make? Gee, I thought we make our > statements with our photos, and not with our brand names....And if the > Zeiss is as good as an M but cheaper, I'd be happy to tell people that > I'm not stupid enough to pay extra just to get a red dot. ;-) Or, put > another way I'd be happy to tell people that what matters is the > glass, and by purchasing the cheaper body I could afford the expensive > lens. Best B. D. > > -----Original Message----- > From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org > [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf > Of animal > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:11 PM > To: Leica Users Group > Subject: Re: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon > > > I didn,t try to engage you in a discussion about lens performance > data. Your 4.5 versus 2.8 remark deflates my Voigh.. remark obviously > . I just believe that if the lenses are not better then Leica's people > will not make a switch. Also to me the newborn doesn,t look as nice as > a M. Another good reason not to buy one. Significantly brighter > viewfinder would be nice of course. But mount a Noctilux on a Zeiss? > What kind of statement does that make other then i don,t want to spend > a thousand more on a real Leica? Would the new lenses be better suited > for a full frame digital sensor? > > best regards > simon > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net> > To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org> > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 12:30 AM > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon > > > > I'm not going to get into one of the lpm debates with you, Simon - > > you > > > and I view these issues, and photography, from very different > > perspectives. > > > > And, yes, why not use a Cosina 15? Well, it's an f 4.5 and this will > > be a 2.8; it's seat-of-the-pants focused and this will be > > rangefinder coupled; and my guess is this will have a better build - > > all valid reasons even if image quality were no better. But I'm > > certainly not against good image quality. > > > > B. D. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org > > [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf > > Of animal > > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 6:22 PM > > To: Leica Users Group > > Subject: Re: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon > > > > > > Well if performance is no factor then why not stay with the existing > > cosina lenses like their 15mm,or put a sublime old 15 mm on a R? > > > > simon > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net> > > To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org> > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 12:10 AM > > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon > > > > > > > But that's the point, Simon - I'm not talking about "performance" > > > of > > > > anything; I'm talking about availability of, and price of, > > > product. And if Leica thinks the path to survival lays through > > > winning a bunch of Erwin Puts bench tests by .xxx%, they're dead > > > on arrival. Fractions > > > > > of percentages aren't going to matter - actually having a product > > > will. If Leica can now turn on a dime and put out a real digital M > > > six > > > > > months from now - BEFORE Zeiss comes out with one - and price it > > > so that it appeals to more than a handful of people for whom money > > > is no object, then they have a chance. If not... > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org > > > [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On > > > Behalf > > > > Of animal > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 5:54 PM > > > To: Leica Users Group > > > Subject: Re: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon > > > > > > > > > As you mentioned earlier i think ,nothing is known about the real > > > performance of the new system. Isn,t it a bit premature to anounce > > > a > > > > winner before a match? best regards simon jessurun amsterdam > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net> > > > To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 10:53 PM > > > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon > > > > > > > > > > IF that's Leica's response to an entire line of new Zeiss t-star > > > > lenses, a film rangefinder body, and what will undoubtedly be a > > > > digital body, then we most assuredly have the answer to the > > > > question. Because if Leica survives as the Hermes of cameraland, > > > > it might as well not survive. > > > > > > > > And there's another point to think about here, folks - Leica is > > > > still around today for only one reason: > > > > > > > > In the early 1960s, Zeiss/Contax and Nikon abandoned the > > > > pro-rangefinder playing field. Nikon, which made what was > > > > definitely > > > > > > the best body at that time - the SP - decided to put all its > > > > eggs in > > > > > > the SLR basket, a decision which was a loss for those of us who > > > > love > > > > > > rangefinders, but was obviously a winner for Nikon. And Contax > > > > must have decided that there wasn't going to be enough > > > > rangefinder > > > > > business > > > > > > > to keep them going. > > > > > > > > So that left the barren playing field to Leica, which, other > > > > than improving it's lens line, hasn't done anything truly > > > > innovative since bringing out and abandoning the M5. And, when > > > > you think about it, really hasn't done anything innovative since > > > > the "O." > > > > > > > > But because there have been enough photographers committed to > > > > using rangefinders, and enough dilitants committed to owning > > > > Leicas - and a scarf company willing to buy up a grand old brand > > > > name - Leica's limped along to the present day. > > > > > > > > Now, however, we are on the downward slope of the technology > > > > range > > > > > taking us into the next age of photography. Any company that > > > > wants > > > > > to survive in the new age is going to have to be a real part of > > > > that > > > > > > age. > > > > > > > And up to this point, Leica has, as usual, limped along at the > > > > back end of the parade. > > > > > > > > So this time Zeiss - well the Zeiss/Kyocera/Hassleblad/Contax > > > > coalition > > > > - has decided to stick around and pickup the pieces. Unless > > > > Leica > > > > > is prepared to move, and move very quickly - perhaps by talking > > > > Nikon, Canon, or Olympus into a rangefinder partnership, Leica's > > > > days are, sadly, very much numbered. I say "sadly" with total > > > > sincerity, because > > > I > > > > am enough of a traditionalist to be touched by the Leica > > > > heritage > > > > - > > > I'd > > > > rather be shooting in a new age with a grandchild of HCB's M3s, > > > > than > > > > > > shooting with a Kocerstein's monster patched together with parts > > > > from > > > a > > > > washing machine, a high-milage care, and a disposable camera. > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > B. D. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org > > > > [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On > > > > Behalf > > > > > > Of Dan C > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 4:33 PM > > > > To: Leica Users Group > > > > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon > > > > > > > > > > > > Leica has responded in part by offering the a la carte Leica. > > > > But > > > > > have you > > > > seen the prices? Do I really want to spend upwards of $4,000 > USD > > > for > > > > the > > > > privilege of picking the colour of my camera? Are there enough > > > > people > > > > > > > out there willing to do so to keep Leica afloat? > > > > > > > > -dan c. > > > > > > > > At 04:26 PM 29-09-04 -0400, B. D. Colen wrote: > > > > >Emanuel says.. > > > > >"The old era of Zeiss - Leitz rivalry was a heady time for 35mm > > > > >design," and asks... > > > > > > > > > >"Now, in these days, how will Leica respond?" > > > > > > > > > >--- > > > > >As they, sadly, always have ... With too little, too late, and > > > > >at > > > > > >too > > > > > > > >high a price. > > > > > > > > > >These are not the heady days of the Zeiss/Leitz competition - > > > > >which, if > > > > > > > > >we recall, were actually the days of the Zeiss/Leitz/Nikon > > > > >competition. > > > > >;-) > > > > > > > > > >These are the days of the Zeiss/Kyocera/Cosina/Hassie > > > > >consortium moving > > > > > > > > >in to clean up the remaining scraps from the rangefinder table > > > > >- scraps > > > > > > > > >that could have been Leicas had Leica moved 18 months ago, or > > > > >even further back, when the Cosina handwriting was writ large > > > > >upon the wall. > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Leica Users Group. > > > > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more > > > > information > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Leica Users Group. > > > > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more > > > > information > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Leica Users Group. > > > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more > > > information > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Leica Users Group. > > > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more > > > information > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Leica Users Group. > > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Leica Users Group. > > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information _______________________________________________ Leica Users Group. 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