[Leica] Zeiss Ikon Focus Shift

[bdcolen at earthlink.net (B. D. Colen)]

Oh give it a rest, Mark - and while you're resting, go read some of the
six-foot deep bullshit Leica puts out. Forgod's sake, go read that
advertising brochure that's being passed off as a photobook - what is
it, Leica century? Puhleaze....

Who cares where it's made, or who makes it? Only someone who's into
status. The question is who designed it, and to whose standards is it
manufactured. Oh, and who stands behind it. I don't give a rat's butt if
my camera is made in New Jersey, Germany, China, or a Red State - What I
want to know is does it perform, and will it keep performing. Period.

As to Leica and its standards, the Leica name is on the digilux and the
last I looked it's a Panasonic. Period. And I don't hear people
attacking Leica over that.

Maybe the Zeiss stuff will turn out to be complete and utter crap. If
that's the case, neither you nor Leica will have anything to sweat.
Meanwhile, however, you are really starting to sound like what's his
name Williams touting No Child Left Behind. ;-)



-----Original Message-----
From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
Mark Rabiner
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 4:20 PM
To: Leica Users Group
Subject: Re: [Leica] Zeiss Ikon Focus Shift


On 1/10/05 11:20 PM, "Bill Marshall" <billgem@hotmail.com> typed:

> Mark, come back to us. You're way out there.
> 
> "Insulting"? Who has Zeiss insulted? Is it getting personal?
> 
> "A dozen questionalble affirmations"? (I assume you mean assertions.) 
> I dare you to name even half a dozen.

The very first thing you see:
LIMITED EDITION: RESERVE YOUR PASSION. (this is the name of the click
area) So when I want to order my back from the dead Zeiss Ikon camera I
click on the "RESERVE YOUR PASSION" button. This is laying it 3 or 4
inches a bit thicker than I've ever really seen before from the typical
hype department. I clicked the button. It got me to the next page. Where
it said, now defining "LIMITED EDITION" "The first 1,200 Zeiss Ikon
rangefinder cameras sold will feature a special insignia and come with a
handsomely designed camera case." So the cameras you thought would
unfortunately be made as a limited edition. A collectors not a shooter
kind of thing. But no its only the first ones with the fancy add ons.
The special insignia and the fancy case. So right off the bat first
thing they are throwing you a curve ball.

The very first page under "system" http://www.zeissikon.com/system.htm
"We decided to design our own camera body because other cameras simply
cannot match the performance standards of our lenses." This sure sounds
like a real stupid put down of Leica. Like Leica is going to screw up
the bodies for their lenses like Hasselblad and Rollei would not? The
joke is on their marketing department if they think that anyone thinks
that Leicas tolerances are lesser then their own. Or Hasselblads or
Rollei's. 
Leica quality (tolerances) is widely perceived as being at least as good
if not better then just about anybodies. But its ok to have Cosina make
their lenses. This kind of slopping hyping just puts a question on their
whole project. This should have been directed specifically at Cosina.
They would somehow justify here that they can trust Cosina to make their
lenses but not their camera body. As if Cosina could get the tolerances
right on the glass but not on a body. Which of course makes no sense so
it is made vague to direct it more at Leica. And not throw a question on
the people who will be making 90 percent of the systems lenses. Me I'd
rather Cosina made the body but they let the glass be made really by
Zeiss in Germany.

B.D. The name of the thing is not the thing.
Leica we've seen Leica pretty much altogether stop making that mistake
since I've been on the lug the last 5 or so years. Portugal, Canada and
Minolta are all in the past. Leica realized that to sell cameras it
needed to reclaim it's integrity. People were not going to shell out the
bucks to by fake Leicas. So it was ordained that Solms would be making
all Leicas for now on. I think it was good for business. Without it
Leica would have croaked.

You are I can give this or that person the right to crank out B. D.
Colen or Mark Rabiner photographs but the people who are paying know if
they want a photograph by us they are going to have to have us standing
there framing the shot and releasing the shutter button. Not some
student or assistant. No one thinks Zeiss made in Japan is in the same
league as Zeiss made by Zeiss. Zeiss can bless and anoint them with any
compound they want. Just hold one in each hand to assess the build and
design. And look at the prices. Zeiss made in Japan is smoke and mirrors
and painted on numbers. We have no idea what " Zeiss made in Japan"
means. They sent over a lens design? They SPECIFIED glass? They SUPPLIED
the glass? Its Japanese glass but really a Zeiss design? Partially
assembled by Zeiss but finished over there in Japan? Or the reverse? The
Japanese and everybody else had been copying Zeiss designs for over a
hundred years so what's new, the Zeiss logo? "Tessar T*" instead of
Scopar or Anastigmat or ? You wanna come out with a lens? Whip out the
Zeiss designs and start working! Do they have a real German guy with a
monocle yelling at all the Japanese people to get their act together and
churn out hundred dollar optics to Zeiss 1000 dollar specs? Or is it the
Japanese doing the yelling for good reason? It would be nice if Zeiss
made in Japan brought out the best of Zeiss German and Japanese lens
design and manufacture. The Germans can and do learn plenty from the
Japanese optical industry not just the reverse. But plenty think Zeiss
made in Japan does not represent the best of Zeiss and the Japanese
company who has licensed the name or design or whatever. But darn close
to the worst. Most of the Zeiss made in Japan stuff I've seen looks and
feels crummy to me. I'd take Nikon over it any day. I'd take CANON! Over
it any day!

But hold a real Zeiss made lens in your hand and ask yourself what
compares to it that is made in Japan. Almost anything you'd put next to
it looks like junk in comparison. The results image wise you'd get from
it of course would be far better than its look and build would lead you
to think. But I think a real Zeiss lens just reeks with quality.

The design and build of Japanese glass various tremendously. Nikon and
Canon is making impressive stuff. Much of it impressive and gorgeous.
About the bottom of the barrel lately I've seen is the Kyocera Contax
stuff which is Zeiss made in Japan. Painted on numbers. Makes a 88
dollar Tamron look like a class item. I think the design and build of
most Cosina glass, the CV stuff lags a full step behind Nikon and Canon.
Sometimes more sometimes less. The 45 they make with the Nikon name on
it an exception. I have a feeling there are others. The 12 seems to be
pretty solid.



> 80 mm medium format lens? 40 mm lens from the Rollei 35S? What the 
> heck do either of these have to do with Zeiss Ikon - or Zeiss itself 
> for that matter?

> Please, if you're going to criticize Zeiss for misrepresentations, 
> clean up your own misrepresentations first.


I think to know if I was misrepresenting Rollei you'd have to be a bit
more up on it first.

While in the last very few years Rollei has not been using Zeiss 80's
and 40's or anything else but making their own Rolleinar or whatever
they call their own glass the bulk of what is out there was made by
Zeiss. While modern HFT coated Rolleinar stuff is said to really give
the older Zeiss T* and Schneider stuff a run for their money all the top
people you hear of like Avedon and Penn and you name it who use Rollei -
it's always Zeiss. Or maybe Schneider. They're not using the brand new
stuff. Part of the problem is that the new Rolleiflexes are made on
cheaper bodies which don't for instance have a 220 option or automatic
loading. The cheaper model was the only tooling that had left when they
came back from the dead. Three times back. Basally when most people
think of shooting with a Rollei they think of shooting with Zeiss. With
a Schneider option.



Mark Rabiner
Photography
Portland Oregon
http://rabinergroup.com/




_______________________________________________
Leica Users Group.
See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information