Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2009/11/01

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Subject: [Leica] the ultimate digest Leica criticism thread
From: dstella1 at ameritech.net (Dante Stella)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 23:43:50 -0500
References: <36172e5a0911011705h76963c99r7e5e2fc6a1b5f071@mail.gmail.com> <D8B22F88-866B-442B-998C-D275066B0834@ameritech.net> <BADD6D43087748FB931FF55241AD9344@syneticfeba505>

I was confused by Frank's "both eyes open" thing too.  Even with the  
M3, doing that gave me a headache.  1.0x is 1.0x - and everything else  
is a migraine.

Maybe Geoff and Frank could settle their extreme differences in an  
extreme cage match - a cage made of brass with a black paint finish?!

Dante

On Nov 1, 2009, at 10:12 PM, <tedgrant at shaw.ca> <tedgrant at shaw.ca>  
wrote:

>>>>> Both eyes open..... remember what is was like to not  get a
>> headache if you were following the action with your M3, with both  
>> eyes.....
>> so that you could see the action come into your frame? <<<<<<<<
>
> Well you see I look at this comment as a one eyed photographer, left  
> eye to be worse with an M camera of any kind! And I see it as a  
> crock of cow dung! Sure I know all the stories about keeping two  
> eyes open and all that stuff! But what the hell when only one works,  
> who cares??? You just do your thing with out thought, capture great  
> images and move on!
>
> Yep and I've been knocked on my ass big time on the side lines by  
> three North Amercian defensive fooftball players and the guy with  
> the ball! Did I go crying and carrying on about the Leica and  
> viewfinder and all this whining?  Nope! You pick yourself up and get  
> doing what the hell you are supposed to be doing..... A  
> photograopher covering a football game!  Get a Life and stop all the  
> caterwhaling about Leica!
>
> They don't listen to this group quite simply because what we are  
> seeing right now! All this whining Bull sh....... t!
>
> If one is so vehemently anti-Leica for heavan sake buy something  
> else and get on with your photo taking life! And in case anyone  
> asks .... no I certainly do not work for Leica, but I do praise to  
> the heavens the quality of the equipment they supply!
>
> Dr. ted
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dante Stella" <dstella1 at 
> ameritech.net 
> >
> To: "Leica Users Group" <lug at leica-users.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 5:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [Leica] the ultimate digest Leica criticism thread
>
>
>> Do you work for Leica?
>>
>> Dante
>>
>> On Nov 1, 2009, at 8:05 PM, Geoff Hopkinson wrote:
>>
>>> Frank I think fair to say that you have been quite prominent
>>> expressing your
>>> opinions here on several Leica issues recently? Also fair to say
>>> that some
>>> others think differently? I put several of your posts together here
>>> with
>>> nothing edited and I offer my responses below each.
>>> .....................................
>>> This is exactly what I was talking about.... make noise for what you
>>> want....otherwise the manufacturer will have no idea that there is a
>>> demand....I signed up... and if the R10 is priced within my means, I
>>> am in
>>> for 2 of them.....Frank Filippone
>>> ......................................
>>> *From my visit to Solms in June. The LUG does not have a high
>>> profile in
>>> Solms. They do look at other internet forums, with the (exclusively
>>> Leica
>>> content) L Camera Forum being the most prominent. Making noise here
>>> is not a
>>> very effective way of telling Leica your opinions.
>>> When the R10 cancellation was announced in June, Stefan Daniel
>>> estimated that a body would have cost 6,000 to 7,000 Euro. His
>>> recent video
>>> interview includes confirmation that they still don't believe the
>>> existing R
>>> lens owner pool is enough to make an R10 viable and Leica will not
>>> make a
>>> conventional dSLR.*
>>> *..............................................*
>>> Hey, if you don't speak your mind, the status quo continues.... and
>>> God knows, our beloved M8 cameras will be upgradeable
>>> forever......Right!
>>> Daniels has the company line to speak and repeat.  He does so well.
>>> Yes, the M8/M9 are .68 VF cameras.  Does that make it a) right, b)
>>> customer driven, c) the only choice Leica had d) my or your choice?
>>> I don't
>>> think there is history that says.. they could have, customers had no
>>> say,
>>> not my choice or preference.  YMMV. They did not do a higher mag VF
>>> for some
>>> reason.. what that real reason is, is Leica's secret..... and they
>>> ain;t
>>> telling us. What I get upset at is the incessant statement that it
>>> can not
>>> be done.  Or that there is no one that wants a higher mag VF.,... I
>>> do.  I
>>> liked my M3 finder ... .91 and all that.  Sure, it was useless if
>>> you had a
>>> 35mm lens on ( without eyes) but it was a wonderful shoot with a
>>> 50......Both eyes open..... remember what is was like to not  get a
>>> headache
>>> if you were following the action with your M3, with both eyes.....
>>> so that
>>> you could see the action come into your frame?  A .55, so I can see
>>> the 28
>>> frames clearly with glasses, and a .42, so I can see the 21 frames
>>> clearly
>>> with glasses. I like the current M8/9 for 35's and above, but it's a
>>> bit too
>>> tight for the 35 and almost right for the 50. Maybe a 0.8. But right
>>> now, if
>>> I could have one body that showed me 21mm framelines, visible with
>>> glasses
>>> and another body that had the current framelines I'd be delighted.
>>> Sure it
>>> can be done.  They already did it... the .85 and .58 M6TTL cameras  
>>> are
>>> examples.  Maybe you don't like the choices, maybe like me, the M6
>>> 28 finder
>>> is not visible with glasses in a .72 body ( not easily, at least),
>>> maybe
>>> they did it for time to market, stubborn Germanic marketing
>>> theories, or
>>> otherwise. But don't blindly say it can't be done or that they will
>>> not do
>>> it.....Market demand focuses efforts on the "impossible" and or
>>> stubbornly refused.....and the LUG is one way to getting the word to
>>> the
>>> uppers at Leica that there is a marketing need that needs
>>> addressing..... A
>>> higher Mag Digi-M would pump demand for the longer lenses, like  
>>> the135
>>> APO Telyt, make focusing easier and more accurate for the Nocti and
>>> Summilux
>>> 50 and 75, and Summicron 75, and 90 lenses,  all valid reasons ( the
>>> main reason for the .85 M6) for a higher VF mag. If market demand
>>> created a
>>> White M8, then market demand can create a higher mag M8., M9, or
>>> M10. Whatever happens, never lose sight of the power of the consumer
>>> to
>>> get products they want, onto the shelves.... Speaking of which.. the
>>> M9....
>>> No IR filter required, no smaller sensor..all impossible, or so we
>>> were
>>> told..... Nonsense.  Marketing nonsense. Want better low light
>>> response than
>>> an M8 or M9?  Complain, incessantly. It will come... So will my
>>> higher mag
>>> VF..... Frank Filippone
>>> ....................................
>>> The gentleman's name is Stefan Daniel, not Daniels.
>>> The reasons for a .68 VF in the M8 and M9 are that they use the same
>>> VF as
>>> the M7 (albeit with a different eyepiece) owing to the greater body
>>> thickness. Look through one if you can find one.  It is the highest
>>> magnification that will allow the 28 framelines to be reasonably
>>> visible
>>> (without glasses). The same standard for all of the recent film
>>> cameras.
>>> Remember that the two alternate sets were dropped from standard film
>>> camera
>>> production some time back, presumably due to insufficient demand.
>>> Unless you
>>> have some evidence to the contrary?
>>> I have the M3 too; the finder was different and even more expensive
>>> to make
>>> as well. I agree that it is wonderfully clear and useful for the 50,
>>> 90 and
>>> 135. Since it did not natively support even the 35 frames that
>>> magnification
>>> was dropped a very long time ago. Leica listening to customer
>>> demands. The
>>> .85 was meant to be a compromise (and the .58 at the other end). If
>>> those
>>> versions were sufficiently in demand, why did Leica drop them? That
>>> 135 is
>>> by all reports a superb lens but it evidently does not sell in
>>> comparable
>>> quantities to the wider types. I just don't see any case for
>>> expecting that
>>> Leica might make any variations on the M9 design anytime soon since
>>> clearly
>>> they are working as hard as possible on just trying to meet the
>>> existing
>>> initial demand.
>>> ...................................
>>> I would think of my criticism as both constructive and market
>>> driven.... not
>>> a bad combination to listen to, if I were Leica...... Companies tend
>>> to
>>> think that they know what is best.  The problem is that
>>> sometimes they get tunnel vision or desperately believe their own
>>> marketing
>>> hype. What they need to do is to listen to customers, objectively
>>> evaluate
>>> the criticism,  and take action.  A hard but necessary corporate
>>> survival
>>> reality. If I can be a voice of the user, if only 1 user, and make
>>> what are
>>> constructive criticisms, I will. And make no apologies for it. Frank
>>> Filippone
>>> .................................
>>> Frank, Leica already has a CEO and business plan ;-) Fair to say
>>> that some
>>> customers or potential customers may also tend to think that they
>>> know best,
>>> sometimes get tunnel vision etc??
>>> .................................
>>> What other major development  can save their company?  The S2? The  
>>> M9
>>> already exists, I was referring to new camera product development.
>>> If I go
>>> back just a few months, then my recommended priority was  #1 FF M8,
>>> #2 a
>>> Digi FF SLR, #3 new optics to go with the DigiR.  Deep 6 the S2,
>>> continue
>>> with the rebranded products to bring in some short term profits.
>>> Followed by product tweaks. R Bodies: Poor seller?  The R8,
>>> introduced in
>>> 1996, was one of the last high end SLR Film cameras.  It was  
>>> hideously
>>> behind in features compared to Nikon and Canon.  But it did take R
>>> glass.
>>> By 1999, the R8 and R9 was selling against the Digi-SLR rebellion
>>> ( Nikon D1
>>> introduced in 1999).  The R9 was never going to be a big winner,  
>>> when
>>> everyone was buying digital.  If it had been a Digi camera, it might
>>> have
>>> been Leica's best seller!  Think of all the R fans out there that
>>> would beat
>>> down the doors to use their R glass with a Digi R and not gone Canon
>>> or
>>> Nikon..I am already on record.. the S2 "stole" resources from the
>>> R10, and
>>> for that reason alone it should have been cancelled. Leica does not
>>> make the
>>> X1.  It is a financial strategy.  As it does not
>>> steal a large amount of resources from the R+D team, I am neutral on
>>> its
>>> existence. Anyone that does not like the X1 because of its features
>>> ( or
>>> whatever reason you wish to put here) is going out and buying a
>>> $13-20K of
>>> M9 stuff? I doubt they buyers are in the same camp.  2 different
>>> markets,
>>> with little to no overlap.
>>> ..........................
>>> See response above ;-)
>>> Yes obviously Leica Camera AG believes that the S2 will allow them  
>>> to
>>> compete in a particular (different) market segment. They do not
>>> believe that
>>> they can compete in the 'shark pool' of dSLRs.
>>> Leica considered the "digital CL' concept as a more affordable M
>>> entry but
>>> assessed that it would be competing with both the M8/9 and the  
>>> used M8
>>> market. That last is their assessmnt of the best entry point for
>>> people not
>>> prepared/able to pay the M8/9 new prices.
>>> .........................
>>> I've read that Nikon is making the camera, I also heard
>>> Panasonic.... but
>>> that may or may not be correct.  They are all rumors..   The
>>> differeing
>>> question is... do you really believe Leica is building a $2K camera
>>> with
>>> lens and 12MP sensor?  Themselves?  In Germany/Portugal/EU?    Has
>>> anyone
>>> visiting the Leica factory seen the X1 being manufactured there?
>>> We have
>>> videos and personal tales of the M9 being made in Germany.  But the
>>> X1?
>>> NADA. The S2 uses resources.   My opinion is that the focus should
>>> have been
>>> on the Digi-R.  So, my comment that the S2 stole resources from the
>>> Digi-R.
>>> Did they start/stop/ever think about a Digi-R?  Maybe, but if they  
>>> had
>>> followed what I believe is a #1 priority, the Digi-R, the resources
>>> were
>>> misdirected to the S2.
>>> As a film camera, they were way behind the 8 ball.... features
>>> lacking all
>>> over the place. But optics?  #1. The market for a digital SLR
>>> something that
>>> takes R lenses and uses the full AE, etc, would be quite robust.....
>>> the
>>> market for another high end MF DIgi camera, in a field of entrenched
>>> manufacturers, with no installed base of  lenses available to set
>>> the stage
>>> (see the Hasselblad V Line), is significantly smaller, and in my
>>> opinion,
>>> may really not exist beyond the really rich amateur.  And thus my
>>> choice for
>>> R+D expenditures....
>>> Digi-R.
>>> Ok.. I'll say it more bluntly.... You have proof otherwise? It is
>>> not a
>>> debate over who is building the X1... If I thought Leica was, I
>>> would be all
>>> over their case. Get back on the subject... the Digi-R.
>>> ........................
>>> Leica has carefully stated that the X1 will be assembled in Germany.
>>> Clearly
>>> not every component will be made there. The same situation to a
>>> greater or
>>> lesser extent as the M9 for example.  I thought that the X1 sensor
>>> origin
>>> was pretty well known but I haven't seen it officially in print so I
>>> won't
>>> repeat it again here. Since its not even in production yet and only
>>> exists
>>> as a few prototypes, maybe wait until they actually produce some and
>>> see
>>> what is shown?
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Geoff
>>> The new LEICA M9 -Passion for perfect pictures.
>>> http://www.m.leica-camera.com
>>>
>>> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/gh/
>>> http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>
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Replies: Reply from red735i at earthlink.net (Frank Filippone) ([Leica] the ultimate digest Leica criticism thread)
In reply to: Message from hopsternew at gmail.com (Geoff Hopkinson) ([Leica] the ultimate digest Leica criticism thread)
Message from dstella1 at ameritech.net (Dante Stella) ([Leica] the ultimate digest Leica criticism thread)
Message from tedgrant at shaw.ca (tedgrant at shaw.ca) ([Leica] the ultimate digest Leica criticism thread)