Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2009/12/21

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Subject: [Leica] M9 Internal IR-Cut filter make the camera fragile to use?
From: mark at rabinergroup.com (Mark Rabiner)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:46:01 -0500

> Dante,
> 
> I'm also one of the lucky ones that got hold of an M9. I have also the
> Zeiss ZM 18mm. And yes in certain circumstances (grey weather,
> underexposure) it shows the redshift. But in the same circumstances I
> have also noticed a redshift with the 24mm Elmarit, 35mm summicron IV
> and even the 50mm summicron. But that doesn't stop me of making
> pictures, because in most of the pictures this redshift is not noticable.
> 
> I have more problems with Lightroom, then the M9. Being a starter in
> this field I'm not preadjusted to Adobe. I have never used Photoshop, I
> used PictureWindowPro instead (a much simpler and cheaper photo editor).
> Being mainly a landscape photographer, I found the quality of the raw
> conversion as done by Lightroom not very impressive. It is good in most
> of the situation, especial with documentary work. I ran in problems with
> lightroom at the moment I had some trees against the sky. Lightroom
> creates all kinds of colorfull anomalies around small details
> (branches). I would have taken this for granted, because the M9 lacks an
> AA filter, untill I discovered how CaptureOne 5 these images processed.
> So at this moment IMHO the raw processing capacity of Lightroom is for
> me just mediocre. It's quality is enough to handle the current flock of
> dSlr's, but it is not capable of exploiting the capabilities the DNG's
> of the M9 have. For me this is a greater bummer then the whole redshift
> issue.
> 
> Regards
> Meino de Graaf
> 
> Geoff Hopkinson wrote:
>> Dante, I'm in your 'hard core cheerleaders for Leica" category of course 
>> and
>> that's fine. I'm one of the lucky minority who has managed to take 
>> delivery
>> of my M9 while many people are still waiting. Its not perfect, sure, what
>> camera is? In my use as an amateur, I consider it a superb tool. If you
>> like, a fine evolution of the M8. Pretty clearly it has had a very 
>> positive
>> response across the market place too. Should it have failed, I think that
>> the consequences for Leica may have been dire. Want to buy a perfectly
>> calibrated and upgraded M8? ;-)
>> No problems with a customer waiting for a 2010 production run, that's 
>> like a
>> eunuch boasting of his chastity at this point!
>> 
>> I don't believe that Leica considered (nor should have) how other brands 
>> of
>> lenses perform with the M9. That is an issue for the other companies. If
>> it's a symbiotic relationship, I think it's heavily weighted in favour of
>> Zeiss and Voigtlander, not Leica. Don't forget that there are film bodies
>> marketed with ZI or Voigtlander on them that are ostensibly the vehicles 
>> for
>> their lenses. I'm sure that the marketplace would welcome competitive
>> digital M designs from them if they were able to/chose to compete. As we
>> know the ability to manually select any of those Leica lens designs adds a
>> large convenience for owners of the ZI and CV lenses. I see that Zeiss is
>> continuing to develop their lens ranges, (Nikon and Canon mounts for
>> example) good for them and good for customers.  Perhaps they will prepare
>> some new lenses in those problematic ultra wide M ranges. Voigtlander too?
>> Cosina is a very innovative and clever outfit.
>> 
>> 2009/12/21 Dante Stella <dstella1 at ameritech.net>
>> 
>>> Geoff:
>>> 
>>> I'm sure it will eventually be fixed in firmware.  Both the radial and
>>> asymmetrical shifts were issues that Kodak had on its own cameras.  My 
>>> point
>>> was that the M9, like the M8, was released to "it's perfect" 
>>> cheerleading by
>>> hardcore Leica enthusiasts - and that again, waiting for the 2010 
>>> production
>>> run (or firmware, more likely) is starting to look like a good idea (for 
>>> the
>>> same reason you wouldn't buy a car the first year a new platform comes 
>>> out).
>>>  Of course, with Leica's "let's spend as little as possible" development
>>> budget for M cameras (and now digital Ms), it could take a while.
>>> 
>>> Leica will fix this color shift problem because it has to.  One of the
>>> three major selling points of the M9 is that "wides are truly wide" (the
>>> other two are resolution and the ability to use your old lenses)  But 
>>> when
>>> you get to 21mm and below,* if the "wides that are truly wide" are 
>>> limited
>>> to are newest-generation lenses in the $5,000-6000 range, this is not a 
>>> very
>>> compelling point.  And buying a new lens defeats the "re-using old 
>>> lenses"
>>> justification: once you are buying a new camera and new lenses, you 
>>> might as
>>> well be cross-shopping other systems.
>>> 
>>> And let's not all be intentionally blind about the fact that Leica sells
>>> (and historically has sold) bodies *because* people have collections of
>>> other manufacturers' lenses (or because those were available).  That's 
>>> the
>>> only reason why manual lens coding made an appearance on the M9 - because
>>> all Leica lenses that could be used with the cameras could be coded.  So
>>> that leaves?  Cosina, Konica, Zeiss... Leica has, historically, had a
>>> symbiotic relationship with other optical manufacturers, whether 
>>> authorized
>>> or not.  C.f. the 1950s, when the only way Leica could sell cameras in 
>>> the
>>> United States was to combine them with Japanese lenses that were subject 
>>> to
>>> a lower duty.  There may have even been no post-war IIIc, IIIf, IIIg, or 
>>> M3
>>> without that.   Then there was the Minolta CL/CLE arrangement.  Then the
>>> modern question: why did Leica allow Erwin Puts to publish, on Leica's 
>>> web
>>> site, a Leica lens book that included the 15mm Cosina lens?
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Dante
>>> 
>>> *I know from experience that a 15mm CV works fine on an M8 as a "21mm"
>>> lens, and I haven't seen any systematic complaining about the 12mm as a
>>> "16mm" lens on that platform.  Any focal length longer than that is 
>>> either
>>> correctible by taking a step backward or getting one focal length shorter
>>> (for a couple of grand, max...).
>>> 
>>> On Dec 18, 2009, at 10:50 PM, Geoff Hopkinson wrote:
>>> 
>>>> OK then Dante. That would be a problem with those Cosina Voigtlander
>>> lenses
>>>> then, not Leica ;-) No worries.
>>>> I'd also seen a comment from PopFlash that Zeiss are not recommending
>>> their
>>>> ZM 4.5 21 on the M9 (but all other ZM lenses OK). I understand that the
>>>> latest free Cornerfix works well with that one (as it does with the
>>>> asymmetric overcorrection that has been reported with some samples of 
>>>> the
>>>> Elmar 18. I read that Leica engineers have seen the testing and samples
>>>> reported on that. Perhaps it will be addressed in the next firmware
>>> release.
>>>> I sold my ZM 18 (and that 21) a while back so I can't comment from
>>>> experience on those. I'm happy with 24 as my widest now on the M9 (which
>>> is
>>>> why I had the 18 for my M8).
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 2009/12/19 Dante Stella <dstella1 at ameritech.net>
>>>> 
>>>>> The 12mm and 15mm lenses are the ones causing consternation.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dante
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Dec 18, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Geoff Hopkinson wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mine works fine including with my 24 and 28 wide open. The biggest
>>>>> problem
>>>>>> that people are reporting is simply that there aren't enough to go
>>> around
>>>>>> for all of the orders so far.
>>>>>> On the cover glass problem, there are six reports currently (from the
>>>>>> thousands of cameras delivered thus far), which is six too many of
>>>>> course.
>>>>>> Too early for the cause or causes to be determined. One camera was
>>>>> replaced
>>>>>> on the spot by the dealer (lucky customer that the dealer had another)
>>>>> and
>>>>>> one that was returned to Solms was repaired in 2 days. I hope the 
>>>>>> other
>>> 4
>>>>>> customers can soon report similar rapid resolutions.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 2009/12/19 Dante Stella <dstella1 at ameritech.net>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Bear in mind that replacing the sensor glass on an M8 requires a
>>>>>>> board-level replacement ($1,800) - so if this situation occurs with
>>> the
>>>>> M9,
>>>>>>> and you don't catch it in-warranty, you could be in for a world of
>>> hurt.
>>>>> I
>>>>>>> don't think Leica changed any of its procurement practices.  I 
>>>>>>> suspect
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> it simply lacks the clean room necessary to replace the glass to 
>>>>>>> Leica
>>>>>>> cleanliness standards and can pass the massive cost of what should be
>>> a
>>>>> $300
>>>>>>> repair to the end user.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Oh yeah... M9, perfect the day it was released, no teething problems,
>>>>>>> investment for the ages, etc.  So we have red shifting, complaints
>>> about
>>>>>>> wide-angle lenses, complaints about incomplete IR blocking, and now
>>>>> broken
>>>>>>> cover glasses.  Every manufacturer of everything has problems early 
>>>>>>> in
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> production run.  It's unrealistic to expect that a digital camera
>>> pushed
>>>>> out
>>>>>>> the door in 18 months would be any different.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> And as my father said, "every car looks like a classic the year it
>>> comes
>>>>>>> out."
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Dante
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ____________
>>>>>>> Dante Stella
>>>>>>> http://www.dantestella.com
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> NO ARCHIVE
>>>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> Geoff
>>>>> http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman
>>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>> 
>> 
>> 
Meino I wonder if a short  transitory stint with Adobe gives you a real idea
of its capabilities other than its presets.  The Adobe Raw filter. Having
come from as you state a simpler much cheaper program actually what  we are
talking about  is Lightroom is 300 bucks and Photoshop 700 bucks and you're
coming from a 79 dollar program PictureWindowPro .
I don't call that an upgrade; I think now you're at day one.

As far as "colorful anomalies around small details" go in the Adobe raw
filter there is under lens corrections: Chromatic Aberrations: Fix Red/Cyan
Fringe and Fix Blue/Yellow Fringe;
And under that Defringe:
Which has in its default is set to OFF
But could be set to Highlight Edges or
All Edges.
Perhaps in CaptureOne 5 those are not set to 0 in the default as it is in
the Adobe?  But Adobe  requires much more than five minus with the program
to understand what these things do as well as a host of others.
CaptureOne 5 is used by a tiny subset of the working photographic community
the tethered people doing medium format.
99.99 percent of the good stuff being done by the best people are using
Adobe. But you all of a sudden know better.
I assure you tracing problems in digital knowing what's going on if its the
camera or the lens or the firmware or the software or your monitor is a
crapshoot for anybody but the experts and it may be even for them. Its all
new. Your only chance is to get very familiar with your materials. And have
those materials be viable. You got to put the time in.







Mark William Rabiner





Replies: Reply from meino at innerside.demon.nl (Meino de Graaf) ([Leica] M9 Internal IR-Cut filter make the camera fragile to use?)
In reply to: Message from meino at innerside.demon.nl (Meino de Graaf) ([Leica] M9 Internal IR-Cut filter make the camera fragile to use?)