Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2012/10/17

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Subject: [Leica] OT: large format lens vs. medium format lens
From: henningw at archiphoto.com (Henning Wulff)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 01:12:40 -0700
References: <CAF8hL-HGDbNOmhkrKP5J+t0n=iu+9OO5Kpk6XqF0CC_utTwKZw@mail.gmail.com> <80F9701439F20347874CE5E4E03C22E99BEEFB26@WhizzMAIL01.whizz.org> <037301cdac24$942141a0$bc63c4e0$@verizon.net> <CAF8hL-HP6AFqvg0Mr7Wj8XGObEMPuqqb2v00Xo79zjKNjytYQQ@mail.gmail.com> <038201cdac27$74ff8fe0$5efeafa0$@verizon.net> <CAF8hL-F6QGKrOH_oGTM1uNEJMProUfjbXRLYG1Eiaf2wO8OkBQ@mail.gmail.com> <B5839013-A96B-4FC6-99B9-D263945A5BE0@archiphoto.com> <CAF8hL-FDkH16gBkVTN54Bcc5n74-ccDP20MawGpHs6Vm+neAQw@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, Richard, I saw the earlier post on the Nikkor and that stuck. The 
Fuji f/4.5 is just about the same as the Nikkor f/4.5; both are older 
designs from the early 70's similar to the Grandagon and the SA 90/5.6. Not 
all that good until f/16, and then they have very good and even performance.

As far as checking, you have to find someone who has a good optical bench 
and knows what he's doing. There was someone here in Vancouver until the 
late 90's who did that for me, but I don't know anyone who does that now. 

Do you have a 4x5 camera or a camera with a good 6x6 or 6x7 back you can 
check this lens on? Those would be better than a 6x17 back. The film 
flatness problem with 6x17 is quite severe, from what I've heard. For a 
number of Photokinas we stayed at the same hotel as Ken Canham, and he was 
trying, reasonably successfully, to make the first 'flatter' 6x17 back. Not 
having tried any, I had to take his word for it. I'm not sure Shenhao got it 
right; Ken didn't think so.

Henning



On 2012-10-17, at 12:17 AM, Richard Man wrote:

> Henning, as I amended, it's a Fuji SWD and not a Nikkor.
> 
> So how do I check if the spacing is correct? This pages talks about lens
> mounting a bit, but no method on checking:
> 
> http://lensn2shutter.com/lensmounting.html
> 
> Again, more (rigorous) tests tomorrow.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 12:04 AM, Henning Wulff <henningw at 
> archiphoto.com>wrote:
> 
>> While the 617 holders have more problems with film flatness, the lens does
>> come into play as well. Which Nikkor 90 is it; the f/8 or the f/4.5? The
>> f/8 is a little sharper in my experience at f/11. While quite decent, they
>> are not quite up to the standard of the newer lenses like the SA-XL line 
>> or
>> especially the Super-Symmar XL. In practice this is extremely hard to see
>> if you are shooting at f/16 and smaller. I have some SA-XL lenses and the
>> 47 is actually a little sharper than the T* Biogon in my SWC as is my 35
>> Apo-Grandagon at f/8. At f/4.5 the Biogon is sharper overall, and at f/11
>> you can't tell the difference. In practice, the SWC usually produces
>> sharper pictures because my best roll film back (6x7) doesn't hold film as
>> flat as the Hasselblad backs. But the 47 covers 4x5, and the 35 covers 
>> 6x12.
>> 
>> Also, make sure the 90 Nikkor is mounted correctly. About half the LF
>> lenses I have were mounted with incorrect spacing between the front and
>> back cells. All lenses I obtained through Sinar or that were originally
>> sold by Sinar or Linhof were mounted correctly; my Nikkors from Nikon in
>> Copal shutters (3) were all mounted out of tolerance and had improved
>> performance after adjustment.
>> 
>> Henning
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 2012-10-16, at 10:36 PM, Richard Man wrote:
>> 
>>> The Shenhao 617 holder. There have been talk about 617 holders (not just
>>> Shenhao's) do not keep the film flat enough :-(
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 10:22 PM, Frank Filippone <red735i at verizon.net
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> the lens will cover the format.........and it is pretty modern, so it
>>>> should
>>>> be pretty sharp.
>>>> 
>>>> The image circle of the 90 Nikkor SWD is 238mm.
>>>> The 6x17 format has a diagonal of 180mm.
>>>> 
>>>> Back to the questions about film flatness.... and "floppiness" in the
>>>> camera...  The SWC is exceptional in this regard.....
>>>> 
>>>> What film "holder" are you using?
>>>> 
>>>> Frank Filippone
>>>> Red735i at verizon.net
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: lug-bounces+red735i=verizon.net at leica-users.org
>>>> [mailto:lug-bounces+red735i=verizon.net at leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> Richard Man
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 10:08 PM
>>>> To: Leica Users Group
>>>> Subject: Re: [Leica] OT: large format lens vs. medium format lens
>>>> 
>>>> Mainly the Nikkor 90mm SWD, but I think the other lens are similar...
>>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 10:02 PM, Frank Filippone
>>>> <red735i at verizon.net>wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Film flatness plays its part....
>>>>> Your lens is trying to project an image circle equivalent to a 5x7
>>>>> negative area....not an easy task....
>>>>> 
>>>>> What lens are you using?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Frank Filippone
>>>>> Red735i at verizon.net
>>>>> 
>>>>> Always been my understanding of it, not the same enlargement so not
>>>>> the same lens resolving. Newer LF lenses are much better than most old
>>>>> ones though....
>>>>> 
>>>>> john
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> 
>>>>> As Iwas formulating the question, it sounds like the answer IS
>>>>> obvious, but just want to confirm.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am testing the Shenhao 617 and it could be my focusing techniques
>>>>> and other issues, but it appears to me that the images are not as
>>>>> sharp on the same film as images made by, well, the Hassy SWC.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yes, I am expecting someone to jump in and say of course the SWC is
>>>>> razor sharp because it's the legendary Biogon etc., but I am now
>>>>> thinking that this generally will be the case, as the large format
>>>>> lens are designed to cover large negative (and the smallest 4x5 dwarfs
>>>>> the 617) so they do not generally have the resolution and sharpness
>>>>> that a good medium format lens has.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Is this correct?
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> // richard <http://www.richardmanphoto.com>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> // richard <http://www.richardmanphoto.com>
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> // richard <http://www.richardmanphoto.com>
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> // richard <http://www.richardmanphoto.com>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
> 


Henning Wulff
henningw at archiphoto.com






Replies: Reply from john at mcmaster.co.nz (John McMaster) ([Leica] OT: large format lens vs. medium format lens)
Reply from mark at rabinergroup.com (Mark Rabiner) ([Leica] OT: large format lens vs. medium format lens)
In reply to: Message from richard at richardmanphoto.com (Richard Man) ([Leica] OT: large format lens vs. medium format lens)
Message from john at mcmaster.co.nz (John McMaster) ([Leica] OT: large format lens vs. medium format lens)
Message from red735i at verizon.net (Frank Filippone) ([Leica] OT: large format lens vs. medium format lens)
Message from richard at richardmanphoto.com (Richard Man) ([Leica] OT: large format lens vs. medium format lens)
Message from red735i at verizon.net (Frank Filippone) ([Leica] OT: large format lens vs. medium format lens)
Message from richard at richardmanphoto.com (Richard Man) ([Leica] OT: large format lens vs. medium format lens)
Message from henningw at archiphoto.com (Henning Wulff) ([Leica] OT: large format lens vs. medium format lens)
Message from richard at richardmanphoto.com (Richard Man) ([Leica] OT: large format lens vs. medium format lens)