Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2013/07/02
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]Now you are making a rational argument, Chris, but I still disagree with you. For me, Leicas are the best cameras for my work. They always have been. I am not a gear-obsessed brand worshiper. I am a working photographer who uses the equipment that I have found to be best for what I do. I agree that Leicas are expensive, but, in my opinion, you get what you pay for. I am really, really rough on cameras. No one would ever want to buy my used Leicas. They are dented, dunked and banged and they just keep working. I have ridden for miles on a horse with my cameras banging off of my shoulders. I have fallen in rivers with my Leicas. My Canons would never take that abuse. My expensive Canon 24L lens fell apart the first week I used it - for photographing a local wedding!! I sent it back, they fixed it, and it did the same thing again. Canon wide lenses are notorious for chromatic aberrations and fringing. I just don't have the time to correct everything that is wrong with those photos. Not everyone has the same requirements in cameras and lenses. I could never use medium format or even large DSLRs and carry them up and down mountains on my shoulders. My sturdy rangefinders are durable and quiet and not at all noticeable in a mud hut in the dark. I think we are just going to have to disagree. I use my Leicas daily and would buy them again today if I had to. I make my living with Leica cameras and lenses and don't think I could do the same with another brand - I'm too old to switch systems, anyway! Tina On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 4:42 PM, Chris Crawford <chris at chriscrawfordphoto.com > wrote: > That's true, Tina. I sell my work as stock too and have made a good amount > of money at it. You have mentioned here though that you are making a > fraction of what you used to from stock. If you did not have the money you > saved from your earlier work and had to live just on what you make today, > could you afford your M9 and M-Monochrome? That's the point of what I was > trying to make. That Leicas are not accessible to young photographers. > > The whole world is like that, not just the photo world. My father made > very good money, but if he were just starting his career today, he'd be > making $8 an hour, not the $35 an hour he made before he retired. Even > when he started, he made the equivalent of $15 an hour (in todays money). > That was when he was 18 and had just graduated high school. > > None of my students will make that when they graduate. I don't say that > because I think they're lazy or dumb or bad kids. Just as my comments > about how much you would earn as a beginning photographer were about the > quality of your work. Its just the way things are for young people; the > jobs and the money are gone. I push my kids to go on to college after they > leave high school. Its the only way they have any hope of a decent living, > and even then its not a sure thing. Most college grads now make far too > little to live, which is why so many young adults live with their parents > today. A new Leica? Young people cannot even afford to live, let alone buy > a camera that costs what those do.They're buying Canon and Nikon because > those do the job and are affordable. > > I know you love your Leicas. I like my two M6 bodies too, but I could work > perfectly well without them, and you could too. Your work is not about > equipment, its about the people you're documenting. To claim that no other > camera is any good and that others are vastly inferior, as you have been > doing a lot lately, is, as I said in my first post, bullshit. Usually the > gear-obsessed brand worshippers are people who have no talent, so they > talk about their 'superior' gear. You don't need to do that, and it > surprised me to see you doing so. > > -- > Chris Crawford > Fine Art Photography > Fort Wayne, Indiana > 260-437-8990 > > http://www.chriscrawfordphoto.com My portfolio > > http://www.facebook.com/pages/Christopher-Crawford/48229272798 > Become a fan on Facebook > > > > On 7/2/13 4:19 PM, "Tina Manley" <images at comporium.net> wrote: > > >Anybody can start with stock photography today. I've gotten several > >students started who have been able to quit their day jobs. All it takes > >is > >hard work, studying the market and many, many hours of keywording. It is > >possible. I continue to submit current photos every day, not from a very > >long time ago. > > > >Tina > > > >On Tuesday, July 2, 2013, Chris Crawford <chris at chriscrawfordphoto.com> > >wrote: > >> Tina made it because she started out a very long time ago. She has > >>stated > >> that she invested the money she made in better times in the past and > >>used > >> that to buy her digital Leicas today. Nothing wrong with that, but that > >> means her experience is not relevant to young ones just starting out. > >>New > >> photojournalists today do not make the money to buy that stuff. Sorry to > >> upset you with facts, but that's reality. What I said was true, and will > >> never apologize for telling the truth to anyone. > >> > >> Not one person who has complained about what I said has taken issue with > >> the facts of what I said, except you. The others knew I was right, but > >> didn't like those facts, so they attacked the way I said it. I stand by > >> every word I have written. > >> > >> This reminds me of one time a student showed up for class late for the > >>5th > >> day in a row. I told him he needed to learn to tell time, which made him > >> mad. "You're disrespecting me!" I told him to start coming to class on > >> time, and I'll respect him, which made the rest of the class break out > >>in > >> laughter. The student started coming to class on time after that. > >> > >> 99% of the problem with today's world is people value feelings over > >>facts > >> and rationality. > >> > >> -- > >> Chris Crawford > >> Fine Art Photography > >> Fort Wayne, Indiana > >> 260-437-8990 > >> > >> http://www.chriscrawfordphoto.com My portfolio > >> > >> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Christopher-Crawford/48229272798 > >> Become a fan on Facebook > >> > >> > >> > >> On 7/2/13 3:51 PM, "Barney Quinn" <bjq1 at mac.com> wrote: > >> > >>> > >>>This is in no sense an improvement. You have, in my view, made things > >>>worse. The face that your have been abused in your life, or the fact > >>>that > >>>people have said hard things to you in no way, under no circumstances > >>>provides you with any reasonable justification for abusing or being > >>>angry > >>>with any other human being. Two wrongs to not make a right. That is a > >>>totally bankrupt moral position. Quite the contrary. Having been hurt it > >>>should motivate you to take care not to injure others. > >>> > >>>What you said to Tina was hurtful. Rewording it so that it says parent, > >>>partner, boy friend, girlfriend, aunt, uncle, or whomever in no way > >>>makes > >>>the remark acceptable because the core thrust of your comment is that > >>>Tina can't make it on her own. That is simply not true. She did. I have > >>>enormous respect for her as a person and as a photographer. I do not > >>>comment on it all that often, but I very much enjoy her pictures. I > >>>always make it a point to look at them. > >>> > >>>The prime tenant of being in a hole, which is where you are, is to stop > >>>digging. Wouldn't it be better all around if you put down your shovel, > >>>stopped digging, admitted you crossed a line you would have been better > >>>advised not to cross, apologize, and then got on with your photography. > >>> > >>>Perhaps you might consider taking the advice you gave Tina. What is it > >>>about this discussion which has such an emotional hold on you?? > >>> > >>>Banrey > >>> > >>> > >>>E-Mail: bjq1 at mac.com > >>>Home: (301) 654-0938 > >>>Cell: (301) 775-1386 > >>> > >>> > >>>On Jul 02, 2013, at 02:46 PM, Chris Crawford > >>><chris at chriscrawfordphoto.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Tina, what I said about your husband having to buy you gear wasn't > >>>>meant > >>>> to be sexist. If you were not married, I'd have said your parents > >>>>would > >>>> have to do it, and if you were a man I'd say wife or parents depending > >>>>on > >>>> if you were married. Someone with money would have to buy you the gear > >>>>you > >>>> use if you were starting your career now because as a professional > >>>> photographer, you would absolutely not earn enough yourself to do it. > >>>>As I > >>>> said in my original post, that is not a negative comment on the worth > >>>>of > >>>> your photographs, it is simply the economic reality in today's world > >>>>where > >>>> photojournalists are so poorly paid. As I said in my original post, I > >>>>make > >>>> more as a first year high school teacher than fulltime > >>>>photojournalists > >>>>I > >>>> know who have 20-30 yrs experience! > >>>> > >>>> The kids at my school caused two of the older teachers to break down > >>>> crying in their classrooms last year, and both quit teaching > >>>>afterward. > >>>>I > >>>> had students say some shocking and horrible things to me when I first > >>>> started but I just laughed it off. Once the kids realized that I > >>>>wasn't > >>>> going to get all emotional and lose my cool, they started to respect > >>>>me > >>>> and by the end of the school year they had come to like me. > >>>> > >>>> My point is that you shouldn't let yourself get too emotional about > >>>>your > >>>> gear or about what people say on the internet. Leica is not a member > >>>>of > >>>> your family, it is not a friend, and it is not God. It is a business, > >>>>and > >>>> like all businesses, it exists to make money, not to care about you or > >>>> your photography. > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Chris Crawford > >>>> Fine Art Photography > >>>> Fort Wayne, Indiana > >>>> 260-437-8990 > >>>> > >>>> http://www.chriscrawfordphoto.com My portfolio > >>>> > >>>> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Christopher-Crawford/48229272798 > >>>> Become a fan on Facebook > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 7/2/13 1:46 PM, "Tina Manley" <images at comporium.net> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> >Thank you, Lluis. Your opinion means a lot to me. Being "just" a > >>>>woman. > >>>> >when I get emotional or an > > > >-- > >Tina Manley > >http://tina-manley.artistwebsites.com > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Leica Users Group. > >See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > -- Tina Manley http://tina-manley.artistwebsites.com