Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2014/04/14

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Subject: [Leica] OT: Sony Sucks, big time
From: jplaurel at gmail.com (Jim Gmail)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 13:34:29 -0400
References: <3B37FEB4-3FAC-411F-A550-A20037C3B760@frozenlight.eu> <6613B562-AB26-45C3-B69A-CBE875A17038@acm.org> <A7DB6DB8-0F15-4176-805A-582C7887D5A5@gmail.com> <CAH1UNJ30RecSnAEr7Q4zSYix2ZyJraHzawKNpwr1iwnDHCFv6Q@mail.gmail.com> <B3C4351CC11144D1A8498009ABD8C19A@billHP> <F1D55AC4BBAC419B88ACEEE58791A781@billHP> <F70CFA98-C0EB-475D-B952-363E61FCD3EB@gmail.com> <CAH1UNJ1h2KaiS4KuiMbtwoT4+dpOfAPbG1wrrGGxjcGr+An1SA@mail.gmail.com>

Jayanand,
My apologies if I offended you in some way. I don't believe I've called 
called you any names. I'm not quibbling or feeling insulted. I was simply 
relating previous experience with my India-based software development team. 
Judging by your reaction, though, my comments must have struck a chord.

-Jim

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 14, 2014, at 13:21, Jayanand Govindaraj <jayanand at gmail.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Jim,
> I can write reams about what I found wrong about the American Mutual Fund
> Industry and the Wall Street and Main Street Banks most of whom I serviced
> for 20 years (and worked for Citibank as head of Merchant Banking for
> India). What does that prove? You and Bill can say what you like,
> pontificate what you like, feel insulted for no rhyme or reason, but the
> fact is that in Asia (why only India?) a liberal arts degree is the last
> option for a student. I do not see what you guys are quibbling about - you
> know next to nothing about the labour market in India, I am still on the
> interview panel for two of India's largest banks, three large mutual funds,
> and a host of other financial sector companies. Do you mean to say that you
> know more about the labour market conditions here than I do? Calling me
> names will not change the conditions here.
> Cheers
> Jayanand
> 
> 
>> On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 10:21 PM, Jim Gmail <jplaurel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I used to run a software development group for a European mobile device
>> manufacturer. Our apps shipped in hundreds of millions devices all over 
>> the
>> world and connected to our service. Most of my team was in the US, but we
>> also had a team in India. These were all guys from top technical
>> universities, no doubt relieved that their talents afforded them the
>> opportunity to earn a "useful" degree rather than something in the liberal
>> arts. On a personal level, I liked them all very much, but working with
>> them was difficult.
>> 
>> Building software is an iterative process and, in the consumer software
>> and services space, the final product almost never looks like the original
>> spec. The architecture of some projects can be large and complex. 
>> Sometimes
>> a spec can't be fully implemented due to unforeseen problems, dependencies
>> or technical limitations. Often, you just run out of time. During the
>> development process, you must adapt to market and technological changes to
>> ensure your product is relevant when it ships.
>> 
>> One of the things I quickly learned about our India team was they were
>> more concerned about doing what they were told to do well, than doing what
>> was right. You could hand them an obviously flawed spec and they would
>> quietly spin their wheels and try to implement it. When they ran into a
>> snag, they'd just bang their heads against the wall rather than coming 
>> back
>> and saying "hey, we ran into this problem, it's going to be difficult and
>> expensive to solve, so let's look for a better way". By contrast, the US
>> team, which was a mix of tech and liberal arts graduates. None one of 
>> those
>> people, and least of all the liberal arts people, would labor for very 
>> long
>> on something they felt was stupid or just wrong. That's because they were
>> more concerned about doing the "right thing" than doing what they were 
>> told
>> to the best of their ability. The group program manager, an English major,
>> would be the first to bang on my door and tell me that I'm an idiot. I
>> appreciate that in anyone who works for me because, like any human being, 
>> I
>> make mistakes.  While the India team was made up of good, smart and
>> talented people, their temperament was such that they'd happily go down a
>> rat hole doing something that makes no sense at all as long as that's what
>> the director has told them to do.
>> 
>> -Jim
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Apr 14, 2014, at 11:34, "Bill Pearce" <billcpearce at cox.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Not to offend, jayanand, but my only experience with India is through
>> telephone banks, and those do not put a good face on your country. In the
>> US, the people who work for liberal arts degrees are not ones who take
>> second best, but are people who are sincerely dedicated to the values of
>> learning, and have in some cases carefully considered the employment
>> possibilities that will result. I have know many Liberal arts majors, and
>> not a one of them chose that because they couldn?t get into a science or
>> math program. That is, really, in US conditions, and insulting statement.
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jayanand Govindaraj
>>> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 3:31 AM
>>> To: Leica Users Group
>>> Subject: Re: [Leica] OT: Sony Sucks, big time
>>> 
>>> Bill,
>>> Well I am not an Engineering Graduate, though I am a Math/Statistics
>>> graduate. I have been hiring people in campus interviews, lateral
>> recruits,
>>> freshers etc. since 1987, first for Citibank India and then for my own
>>> company, all direct recruits into the management cadre. I think I have
>>> enough experience to know what I am talking about - in fact in both
>> cases,
>>> for freshers, we were only worried about above average intelligence - the
>>> banking/finance know how could easily be taught in a few months. I have
>>> nothing against Liberal Arts majors, only the ones who opt for that
>> stream
>>> are those, in my experience, under Indian conditions, who could not get
>>> admission in professional/commerce/science degree courses. Secondly, a
>> lack
>>> of math knowledge is a severe handicap in most manufacturing/services
>>> management trainee type of jobs. YMMV.
>>> Cheers
>>> Jayanand
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Bill Pearce <billcpearce at cox.net>
>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> You may not know this, and most employers certainly don't, but Liberal
>>>> Arts and Fine Arts majors make the best employees. They learn fast, and
>> are
>>>> not filled with useless ideas about how to get things done, and more
>> easily
>>>> adapt to change.
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jim Gmail
>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 10:13 PM
>>>> To: Leica Users Group
>>>> Subject: Re: [Leica] OT: Sony Sucks, big time
>>>> 
>>>> I was a liberal arts major (Econ) and have designed products and
>> services
>>>> that you very likely have used. Back in the 90s when I was at MSFT,
>> there
>>>> were loads of music majors writing code and even art history majors
>> running
>>>> product groups. The group program manager for the native apps on the
>>>> original iphone was an English major. Many tech startup founders have
>>>> liberal arts backgrounds.
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> On Apr 13, 2014, at 22:35, Jayanand Govindaraj <jayanand at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jim, But Liberal Arts majors are incapable of designing TVs or
>>>>> manufacturing them in the first place! (-: So what is your point?
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> Jayanand
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 7:58 AM, Jim Gmail <jplaurel at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> That's what happens when the liberal arts are discarded in favor of
>> more
>>>>>> "practical" majors.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Apr 13, 2014, at 20:19, Herbert Kanner <kanner at acm.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Nathan,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> You may just have been a victim of the fact that most engineers
>> cannot
>>>>>> write, whether it's in English or Japanese.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Here's how I achieved fame in my department at Apple. A couple of
>> guys
>>>>>> "invented" a piece of software that gets independently invented at
>> just
>>>>>> about every company that writes software. The system controlled
>> editing
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> that two or more people couldn't simultaneously  make changes and
>> step on
>>>>>> each other's work. So, if one person "checks the software out" for
>>>>>> editing,
>>>>>> all others can get it on a read-only basis until the first person
>> checks
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> back in.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I had to use this simple thing, and the write-up by it's authors was
>> so
>>>>>> damn unintelligible that I had to figure out how to work it by trial
>> and
>>>>>> error. After then using it, I just decided, on my own to write a
>> manual.
>>>>>> My
>>>>>> boss was so impressed that I got an imaginative reward: three bottles
>> of
>>>>>> wine a month for a year.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Subsequently, I was picked to edit our release notes, which
>> ultimately
>>>>>> grew to about 350 pages. I had a great experience editing the
>> writings of
>>>>>> people, with a few exceptions, couldn't write.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Herbert Kanner
>>>>>>> kanner at acm.org
>>>>>>> 650-326-8204
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Question authority and the authorities will question you.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Apr 13, 2014, at 1:44 AM, Nathan Wajsman <photo at frozenlight.eu>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I have never owned a Sony camera, and now I know for sure that  I
>> never
>>>>>>> will.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> We just bought a 65-inch Sony Bravia TV, one of the latest models,
>> not
>>>>>>> cheap to put it mildly. Great picture, but we have struggling for 2
>> days
>>>>>> with the simple task (or should be simple) to connect a garden variety
>>>>>> laptop to the TV using its wifi interface so that the TV in effect
>> acts
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> a computer monitor, but without the clutter of HDMI cables and all
>> that.
>>>>>> The menus and instructions for Sony products were apparently
>> originally
>>>>>> written in Klingon, then translated into Japanese and then to English.
>>>>>> And
>>>>>> it appears that unless your computer is a Sony Vaio, you have to
>> perform
>>>>>> various unnatural acts. Everything Sony seems to be proprietary.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I think the TV is going back to the store (fortunately, we bought
>>>>>>> locally), to be replace by a Samsung or LG.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> Nathan
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Nathan Wajsman
>>>>>>>> Alicante, Spain
>>>>>>>> http://www.frozenlight.eu
>>>>>>>> http://www.greatpix.eu
>>>>>>>> PICTURE OF THE WEEK: http://www.fotocycle.dk/paws
>>>>>>>> Blog: http://nathansmusings.wordpress.com/
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> YNWA
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more
>> information
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Leica Users Group.
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>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Leica Users Group.
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>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
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>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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> 
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information


In reply to: Message from photo at frozenlight.eu (Nathan Wajsman) ([Leica] OT: Sony Sucks, big time)
Message from kanner at acm.org (Herbert Kanner) ([Leica] OT: Sony Sucks, big time)
Message from jplaurel at gmail.com (Jim Gmail) ([Leica] OT: Sony Sucks, big time)
Message from jayanand at gmail.com (Jayanand Govindaraj) ([Leica] OT: Sony Sucks, big time)
Message from billcpearce at cox.net (Bill Pearce) ([Leica] OT: Sony Sucks, big time)
Message from billcpearce at cox.net (Bill Pearce) ([Leica] OT: Sony Sucks, big time)
Message from jplaurel at gmail.com (Jim Gmail) ([Leica] OT: Sony Sucks, big time)
Message from jayanand at gmail.com (Jayanand Govindaraj) ([Leica] OT: Sony Sucks, big time)