Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2002/01/17

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Subject: Re: [Leica] marc'small's M3 - M6 explanation - LONG BUT WORTH IT
From: SthRosner@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:47:09 EST

OK, friends, you want facts, here are the facts.

In a message dated 1/16/02 7:19:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
msmall@roanoke.infi.net writes:

> Seth
>  Claiming references without citing names is, of course, a no-no.  Provide
>  names, or hold your peace.

Two Leica friends collaborated on the message I quoted. Peter Wright, an 
experienced and long-time Leica photographer and LHSA member in Alhambra, 
California, was one of them.
  
>  you have previously revealed your inability to read
>  things.  I guess you never read the addendum to the M3/M2 IB ...

You specialize in gratuitous insults. The above friends and I have looked at 
M2/M3/M4 IBs; there is no mention of annual CLAs. I spoke 30 minutes ago with 
Jim Lager who has been in Leicas for 30 years, worked at Leitz Rockleigh for 
five, has an enormous collection of official Leitz/Leica literature (probably 
the largest private collection in the world), including IBs and catalogues 
(and all errata and addenda). In 30 years, Jim just told me, he has never 
seen or heard of a piece of official Leitz/Leica literature recommending 
annual CLAs nor had he ever heard that mentioned at Leitz. Please furnish me 
with an actual example of the addendum to which you refer (not a quotation 
from it - I don't trust you). When I see it, I will acknowledge that I was 
wrong. Otherwise, we will all know that this was another of your 
fabrications. I promise to return it unharmed. 
  
>  Tink Ewald died two years back (one of the founders of what is now the
>  LHSA) 

Yesterday by phone Dr. Al Clarke, one of the real founders of the LHSA  said 
"I never heard of Tink Ewald...where is he from?" Gerald Leeson started the 
Leica Collectors International (LCI) in 1967 and attended the LHSA meeting at 
which he certified Dr. Clarke, Julius Foris, George Newton (of the UK), Rolfe 
Fricke and Dr. John Pember as the charter members (founding fathers) of LHSA. 
Who was Tink Ewald, marc? Facts. Dates. No one in LHSA has heard of him.

> but the repair guy who worked for him and who now has my M6, and
>  Tink's kids, will confirm. 

That's a no-no, marc. Name the repair guy who worked for Tink Ewald and who 
now has your M6. Give me his telephone number so I can check your facts. And 
Tink's kids will confirm what? They had knowledge of their father and the 
operation of his store? Come on, marc!

> Ewald-Clark was hardly a large store,

where was the store, city and street address? I want to check it out.

> but they had three repair guys trained by ELNY. 

......a small store had THREE REPAIR GUYS trained by Leitz? Or was it really 
a big store? Is that believable LUGGERS? Name their names, marc. Telephone 
numbers? Can I call them?

This is typical marc very small. marc cites one example (assuming it is true 
- - ?? -) and expects the reader to accept that as evidence of his universal 
statement. NOT.

Roger Pelham owned and ran a camera store and was a franchised Leica dealer 
in Muncie Indiana from 1937 to 1960. Since then he has continued a private 
trade in Leica equipment. This morning by phone, as to the statement that 
Leitz NY encouraged dealers to set up independent repair facilities, Roger 
said: "absolute bullsh-t." He said "Leitz didn't want independent repair 
shops where they couldn't directly control the quality of the service. Of 
course, they also wanted to keep the repair business. In addition, a local 
shop, PARTICULARLY A SMALL ONE [he said], couldn't stock parts and certainly 
couldn't afford the expensive equipment required to do complicated repairs 
and test cameras and lenses once repaired." He did acknowledge that some of 
the very big stores might have had a Leitz-trained repair person, who also 
worked on cameras and lenses from other manufacturers. 

As an interesting historical aside, he also said that for many years the only 
repair people at Leitz NY were German, having been trained at Wetzlar and 
come to New York at Wetzlar's direction. He added that sometime in the 1950s 
Al Novick, the Leica Chicago area man, recommended that Leitz hire Norman 
Goldberg who then came to New York and was the first American to work in 
repair at Leitz NY. His son is Don Goldberg (DAG). 

In the interest of fairness and openness, something you need to learn, marc, 
I will add that I just got off the phone with Ernst Hartmann, head of the 
service department at Leica Northvale. Ernst did say that for a couple of 
years in the 1970s, because of requests from some dealers, Leitz attempted to 
train Leica repair people to do authorized Leica service locally. It didn't 
work because the local people couldn't acquire an adequate level of knowledge 
and experience, they didn't buy the necessary repair tools and test equipment 
and some of them used non-factory substitute parts to make more money. As a 
result, Leitz couldn't monitor and control the quality of service, Leitz's 
reputation took a bad hit and they shortly discontinued the program. Maybe 
that's when Tink did his thing.

Now I'll give you names. People, for close to four decades, with whom I've 
been friends and on a first name basis at Leitz NY, Leitz Rockleigh and Leica 
Northvale : Jim Lager, Ernst Hartmann, Walter Heun, Hy Becker, Walter Moffat, 
Vince Fochtman, Richard Torpey, Ronnie Greico, Nils Thorsten and many others 
whose names escape me at the moment. 

In June 1967 I went to the Leitz showroom on Park Avenue South to buy my 
first M Leica, intending to buy an M3. Met Dick Torpey who told me that the 
new M4 was about to be delivered and if I could wait a week it should be in. 
Told him I was going on an extended trip to Asia and asked would I need to be 
concerned about maintenance or service. He laughed and said that Leica 
cameras and lenses undergo four - count them, four - quality and tolerance 
inspections before they leave Wetzlar and are inspected once again at Hudson 
Street. He said if you don't damage or misuse the M3 or M4, unless you are a 
professional putting hundreds of rolls through each month, or week, you won't 
have to have it serviced for 7 or 8 years. If you're a professional 
photographer, it might be prudent to service it in 4-5 years. 

Hy Becker, the Leitz sales rep for the eastern half of the United States, was 
a very good friend at that time. When I posed the same question about my new 
M4, he gave exactly the same response. And within the last half-hour, I put 
exactly that question by telephone to Don Goldberg (DAG Camera Repair) and 
Ernst Hartmann. Both of them  laughed. Neither ever heard of a recommended 
annual CLA, both said it was entirely unnecessary and Ernst has been with 
Leitz/Wetzlar, Leitz/NY and Leica/Northvale for decades and Don has been in 
the business for many years. 

And I still have that 34 year-old M4; it's been CLAd once and still operates 
perfectly. 

>and read the Pop article I referenced, which also mentions this.  Or check 
with Herb >Keppler, who has written about the "annual CLA" thing.

A Pop article and Herb Keppler are the sources for Leitz formally 
recommending an annual CLA? Come on, marc. 

> Contact me off-List for further information -- 
>  Marc

......now that is really the limit. You put out disinformation after 
disinformation and when someone calls you on it, you declare victory and 
retreat to "contact me offlist"
You should be ashamed of yourself. In some parts of the world that is called 
cowardice, not something the United States Army would expect in a retired 
reserve lieutenant colonel.

Further deponent knoweth not.

Seth Rosner        still         LaK 9

P.S. marc, others on this list have written me offlist thanking me for taking 
you on. No, I will not name their names. It seems there are those on the list 
who are too sensitive about your nasty, sometimes vicious, and always slimy 
way of attacking people to take you on. I'm not going away so mend your ways 
and mind your tongue.
- --
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Replies: Reply from Bill Satterfield <cwsat@istate.net> (Re: [Leica] marc'small's M3 - M6 explanation - LONG BUT WORTH IT)