Re: [Leica] marc'small's M3 - M6 explanation - LONG BUT WORTH IT

[Bill Satterfield <cwsat@istate.net>]

SthRosner@aol.com wrote:

>OK, friends, you want facts, here are the facts.
>
>In a message dated 1/16/02 7:19:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>msmall@roanoke.infi.net writes:
>
>>Seth
>> Claiming references without citing names is, of course, a no-no.  Provide
>> names, or hold your peace.
>>
>
>Two Leica friends collaborated on the message I quoted. Peter Wright, an 
>experienced and long-time Leica photographer and LHSA member in Alhambra, 
>California, was one of them.
>  
>
>> you have previously revealed your inability to read
>> things.  I guess you never read the addendum to the M3/M2 IB ...
>>
>
>You specialize in gratuitous insults. The above friends and I have looked at 
>M2/M3/M4 IBs; there is no mention of annual CLAs. I spoke 30 minutes ago with 
>Jim Lager who has been in Leicas for 30 years, worked at Leitz Rockleigh for 
>five, has an enormous collection of official Leitz/Leica literature (probably 
>the largest private collection in the world), including IBs and catalogues 
>(and all errata and addenda). In 30 years, Jim just told me, he has never 
>seen or heard of a piece of official Leitz/Leica literature recommending 
>annual CLAs nor had he ever heard that mentioned at Leitz. Please furnish me 
>with an actual example of the addendum to which you refer (not a quotation 
>from it - I don't trust you). When I see it, I will acknowledge that I was 
>wrong. Otherwise, we will all know that this was another of your 
>fabrications. I promise to return it unharmed. 
>  
>
>> Tink Ewald died two years back (one of the founders of what is now the
>> LHSA) 
>>
>
>Yesterday by phone Dr. Al Clarke, one of the real founders of the LHSA  said 
>"I never heard of Tink Ewald...where is he from?" Gerald Leeson started the 
>Leica Collectors International (LCI) in 1967 and attended the LHSA meeting at 
>which he certified Dr. Clarke, Julius Foris, George Newton (of the UK), Rolfe 
>Fricke and Dr. John Pember as the charter members (founding fathers) of LHSA. 
>Who was Tink Ewald, marc? Facts. Dates. No one in LHSA has heard of him.
>
>>but the repair guy who worked for him and who now has my M6, and
>> Tink's kids, will confirm. 
>>
>
>That's a no-no, marc. Name the repair guy who worked for Tink Ewald and who 
>now has your M6. Give me his telephone number so I can check your facts. And 
>Tink's kids will confirm what? They had knowledge of their father and the 
>operation of his store? Come on, marc!
>
>>Ewald-Clark was hardly a large store,
>>
>
>where was the store, city and street address? I want to check it out.
>
>>but they had three repair guys trained by ELNY. 
>>
>
>......a small store had THREE REPAIR GUYS trained by Leitz? Or was it really 
>a big store? Is that believable LUGGERS? Name their names, marc. Telephone 
>numbers? Can I call them?
>
>This is typical marc very small. marc cites one example (assuming it is true 
>- ?? -) and expects the reader to accept that as evidence of his universal 
>statement. NOT.
>
>Roger Pelham owned and ran a camera store and was a franchised Leica dealer 
>in Muncie Indiana from 1937 to 1960. Since then he has continued a private 
>trade in Leica equipment. This morning by phone, as to the statement that 
>Leitz NY encouraged dealers to set up independent repair facilities, Roger 
>said: "absolute bullsh-t." He said "Leitz didn't want independent repair 
>shops where they couldn't directly control the quality of the service. Of 
>course, they also wanted to keep the repair business. In addition, a local 
>shop, PARTICULARLY A SMALL ONE [he said], couldn't stock parts and certainly 
>couldn't afford the expensive equipment required to do complicated repairs 
>and test cameras and lenses once repaired." He did acknowledge that some of 
>the very big stores might have had a Leitz-trained repair person, who also 
>worked on cameras and lenses from other manufacturers. 
>
>As an interesting historical aside, he also said that for many years the only 
>repair people at Leitz NY were German, having been trained at Wetzlar and 
>come to New York at Wetzlar's direction. He added that sometime in the 1950s 
>Al Novick, the Leica Chicago area man, recommended that Leitz hire Norman 
>Goldberg who then came to New York and was the first American to work in 
>repair at Leitz NY. His son is Don Goldberg (DAG). 
>
>In the interest of fairness and openness, something you need to learn, marc, 
>I will add that I just got off the phone with Ernst Hartmann, head of the 
>service department at Leica Northvale. Ernst did say that for a couple of 
>years in the 1970s, because of requests from some dealers, Leitz attempted to 
>train Leica repair people to do authorized Leica service locally. It didn't 
>work because the local people couldn't acquire an adequate level of knowledge 
>and experience, they didn't buy the necessary repair tools and test equipment 
>and some of them used non-factory substitute parts to make more money. As a 
>result, Leitz couldn't monitor and control the quality of service, Leitz's 
>reputation took a bad hit and they shortly discontinued the program. Maybe 
>that's when Tink did his thing.
>
>Now I'll give you names. People, for close to four decades, with whom I've 
>been friends and on a first name basis at Leitz NY, Leitz Rockleigh and Leica 
>Northvale : Jim Lager, Ernst Hartmann, Walter Heun, Hy Becker, Walter Moffat, 
>Vince Fochtman, Richard Torpey, Ronnie Greico, Nils Thorsten and many others 
>whose names escape me at the moment. 
>
>In June 1967 I went to the Leitz showroom on Park Avenue South to buy my 
>first M Leica, intending to buy an M3. Met Dick Torpey who told me that the 
>new M4 was about to be delivered and if I could wait a week it should be in. 
>Told him I was going on an extended trip to Asia and asked would I need to be 
>concerned about maintenance or service. He laughed and said that Leica 
>cameras and lenses undergo four - count them, four - quality and tolerance 
>inspections before they leave Wetzlar and are inspected once again at Hudson 
>Street. He said if you don't damage or misuse the M3 or M4, unless you are a 
>professional putting hundreds of rolls through each month, or week, you won't 
>have to have it serviced for 7 or 8 years. If you're a professional 
>photographer, it might be prudent to service it in 4-5 years. 
>
>Hy Becker, the Leitz sales rep for the eastern half of the United States, was 
>a very good friend at that time. When I posed the same question about my new 
>M4, he gave exactly the same response. And within the last half-hour, I put 
>exactly that question by telephone to Don Goldberg (DAG Camera Repair) and 
>Ernst Hartmann. Both of them  laughed. Neither ever heard of a recommended 
>annual CLA, both said it was entirely unnecessary and Ernst has been with 
>Leitz/Wetzlar, Leitz/NY and Leica/Northvale for decades and Don has been in 
>the business for many years. 
>
>And I still have that 34 year-old M4; it's been CLAd once and still operates 
>perfectly. 
>
>>and read the Pop article I referenced, which also mentions this.  Or check 
>>
>with Herb >Keppler, who has written about the "annual CLA" thing.
>
>A Pop article and Herb Keppler are the sources for Leitz formally 
>recommending an annual CLA? Come on, marc. 
>
>>Contact me off-List for further information -- 
>> Marc
>>
>
>......now that is really the limit. You put out disinformation after 
>disinformation and when someone calls you on it, you declare victory and 
>retreat to "contact me offlist"
>You should be ashamed of yourself. In some parts of the world that is called 
>cowardice, not something the United States Army would expect in a retired 
>reserve lieutenant colonel.
>
>Further deponent knoweth not.
>
>Seth Rosner        still         LaK 9
>
>P.S. marc, others on this list have written me offlist thanking me for taking 
>you on. No, I will not name their names. It seems there are those on the list 
>who are too sensitive about your nasty, sometimes vicious, and always slimy 
>way of attacking people to take you on. I'm not going away so mend your ways 
>and mind your tongue.
>--
>To unsubscribe, see http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html
>
>



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