Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2009/01/17

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Subject: [Leica] more audiophilia spectacularly OT but interesting to a few
From: luisripoll at telefonica.net (Lluis Ripoll)
Date: Sat Jan 17 10:48:41 2009
References: <95E9458A-6E41-4A2D-86F8-A919380FA32B@mac.com> <COL119-W6279E98543A1FB49A6154882D40@phx.gbl> <p06230923c5969b79af39@[10.0.1.200]> <69F35E33-20A0-4278-ACC3-AD8B57F9BAD1@btinternet.com> <6C0FC57D-5655-4108-817C-F0ED182C9D07@telefonica.net> <E861974B-0FFB-4007-957D-40ABA34B29D1@btinternet.com>

Hi Frank,

Thank you for your good explanation, you have a really good knowledge,  
the problem with the Hi-Fi is as you know that the prices to improve  
quality increase geometrically, in other words, if your actual  
investiment is level 10 to have a quality level 15 you should pay 20,  
and to have a quality 23 you should pay 35... In my experience when  
I've purchased something I've paid attention to the differences etc..,  
even the shop who sells me they know me after I was very young and  
they leave me the things at home to try and compare..., but once you  
buy it you are used to listen and many, many times I don't pay  
attention to the details that make better an outfit over the other.

Saludos cordiales
Lluis




El 17/01/2009, a las 19:03, Frank Dernie escribi?:

> Hi Lluis!
> Before I took up my current career I did R&D and design of record  
> players. You are absolutely right, the requirement of the turntable  
> is to rotate at constant speed and no sound parasites. The technical  
> problem is to achieve this. No turntable I have ever measured or  
> heard actually achieves it. Our ears are more sensitive than any  
> transducer in both frequency and amplitude. There is -no- turntable  
> ever made which produces no sound parasites, and the vast majority  
> produce a lot of sound parasites and at quite high level. Clever  
> designers design their players so the parasitic resonances and  
> feedback are at frequencies and "Q" that listeners find pleasant.  
> Many record players I have measured have very obviously been tuned  
> to only add harmonious "interference".
> There was one very highly regarded SME arm, the 3009, which had such  
> energetic resonances that they could be seen as big peaks on the  
> curve if one was trying to measure a pickup cartridge, the signal  
> added by this arm at some frequencies was louder than the original  
> music! The other thing difficult to avoid is the time delayed  
> feedback from the sound in the room, both structure-borne and  
> airborne.
>
> A few people have tried to lower there parasitics considerably. The  
> ones I have seen which do this in a technically sound way are  
> Goldmund and Continuum (there are others who get part way there at a  
> less "no compromise price"). I am familiar with the Goldmund (the  
> original not the new limited edition one which seems ludicrously  
> expensive) Of all those I know it allows by far the lowest level of  
> parasitic interference get to the pickup cartridge. What Continuum  
> print is technically very sound. I would not be surprised to find it  
> superior to the Goldmund in these respects.
>
> The Clearaudio is based on pseudo-technical gobbledygook which is  
> either there to keep their secrets or, looking at the design, simply  
> to separate clients from their cash. In my opinion.
>
> The pickup cartridge is, as you say, very important. I also use an  
> Ortofon. In fact the generator design and pivot damping dominate the  
> characteristics at lower frequencies. As frequencies increase the  
> shape of the stylus tip is increasingly important, I forget the  
> frequency limit for the original spherical tips but at a  
> surprisingly low frequency the radius of the tip is bigger than the  
> curve it would have to follow in the groove. At this point it starts  
> being very inaccurate. The best stylus tips are very expensive. All  
> this is wasted however if the turntable and arm either generate  
> parasites or allow feedback through. All turntables do to a  
> surprisingly high degree, the nice ones are the ones that add  
> harmonious interference!
>
> best regards,
>
> Frank
>
>
> On 17 Jan, 2009, at 16:26, Lluis Ripoll wrote:
>
>> Frank,
>>
>> This is a beautiful "toy"!
>>
>> In my opinion the turntable is not a "main element", the capsule  
>> could be more important. For me the work of a turntable should be:  
>> constant speed, and no sound parasites, the good work is do by the  
>> rest of the installation and also a vey important thing, I've  
>> expend some money on have good cables and connectors. My turntable  
>> is a Lenco L-78 from the 70's with an Ortophon capsule and it still  
>> sound very good, enought for me.
>>
>> Saludos cordiales
>> Lluis
>>
>>
>> El 17/01/2009, a las 11:32, Frank Dernie escribi?:
>>
>>> I know most of you will think this high price stuff is a joke, and  
>>> at this price (and actually, looking at the design as a person who  
>>> used to design high end turntables >30 years ago, this particular  
>>> item is a victory for marketing). The most important engineering  
>>> aspects for a turntable to work well are not addressed in this  
>>> design, more a styling/marketing exercise (IMHO).
>>> It is actually extremely high tech to produce a device to  
>>> transduce records without adding some, or a lot, of non signal  
>>> related vibrations ends up being added to the output by the  
>>> machine. A record playing device which works well is likely to  
>>> cost several orders on  magnitude more than any CD player, and is  
>>> probably not worth it........
>>> The device I have measured and listened to which is the most  
>>> accurate, the Goldmund Reference was very expensive (not as much  
>>> as this thing though) and made in tiny quantities.
>>>
>>> There is a very expensive turntable system which, based on my  
>>> knowledge, probably is the most accurate one available. It  
>>> cleverly addresses all the important requirements I know of. I  
>>> have never seen or listened to one.
>>>
>>> http://www.continuumaudiolabs.com/
>>>
>>> but not as pretty.
>>> FWIW,
>>> Frank
>>>
>>>
>>> On 16 Jan, 2009, at 20:17, Henning Wulff wrote:
>>>
>>>> At 12:26 PM -0700 1/16/09, Greg Lorenzo wrote:
>>>>> George Lottermoser writes:> > 
>>>>> <http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/01/16/ces.luxury.turntable/index.html?  
>>>>> > iref=mpstoryview>> > nonsensically cryptic,> george
>>>>>
>>>>> Quoted from the link:
>>>>>
>>>>> "When I look at it," said Placido Pappalardo, co-owner of maker  
>>>>> Angelis Labor, "the only word that comes to mind is love."
>>>>>
>>>>> The first word that came to my mind was 'stupid'.
>>>>>
>>>>> Greg Lorenzo
>>>>> Calgary, Canada
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How about this one for $125,000?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.musicalsurroundings.com/clearaudio/CAstatement.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But the tonearms are included.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>>
>>>> *            Henning J. Wulff
>>>> /|\      Wulff Photography & Design
>>>> /###\   mailto:henningw@archiphoto.com
>>>> |[ ]|     http://www.archiphoto.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more  
>>>> information
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
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>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information



Replies: Reply from Frank.Dernie at btinternet.com (Frank Dernie) ([Leica] more audiophilia spectacularly OT but interesting to a few)
In reply to: Message from imagist3 at mac.com (George Lottermoser) ([Leica] more audiophilia)
Message from gregj_lorenzo at hotmail.com (Greg Lorenzo) ([Leica] more audiophilia)
Message from henningw at archiphoto.com (Henning Wulff) ([Leica] more audiophilia)
Message from Frank.Dernie at btinternet.com (Frank Dernie) ([Leica] more audiophilia spectacularly OT but interesting to a few)
Message from luisripoll at telefonica.net (Lluis Ripoll) ([Leica] more audiophilia spectacularly OT but interesting to a few)
Message from Frank.Dernie at btinternet.com (Frank Dernie) ([Leica] more audiophilia spectacularly OT but interesting to a few)