Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2004/10/15

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Subject: [Leica] Digital "crop factor"
From: bdcolen at earthlink.net (B. D. Colen)
Date: Fri Oct 15 16:09:32 2004

I understand what you're saying, Luis. But the irony is that virtually
none of us can begin to take advantage of the capabilities of our Leica
optics, particularly if they're the latest generation of lenses, and if
we're  shooting hand-held, which is what our Leicas were designed for.
The reality is that other manufacturers make lenses that will get us
images that are just as good as the images our Leica lenses will get us.
We make like the particular fingerprint of a given Leica lens, rather
than that of another manufacturer's lens, but that's a matter more of
taste than optics.

But you're of course right...all of this comes down to a matter of
taste, age, background, and any number of personal factors. I, for
instance, love the look of Tri-X exposed at 800 iso; many other people
may abhor that look, preferring the slowest, finest grain film they can
obtain. It's all a matter of taste.

Best wishes

B. D.

-----Original Message-----
From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
Luis Ripoll
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 4:46 PM
To: Leica Users Group
Subject: RE: [Leica] Digital "crop factor"


Well, I'm sure you are right, and that I've said is under a "romantic"
position; absolutely true, the important are the images, but we, the
Leica lovers, we are also in love with our instrument and the lens
capabilities, why discuss about the perfection of a lens if even if
someone have the better lens of the world this doesn't imply take good
pictures. Well, maybe the photographers of our generation we are
still... romantic, idealists, we like or we prefer the difficult manner
to act in front of the easy modern manner..., probably all these things
have produced the magical concept of the photography, probably if HCB
has had an automatic camera nobody has appreciated his pictures and
create the history of a myth.

In other sense, when the TV is coming the great films, directors, has
finished, look Frank Capra, Howard Hawks, Orson Welles, Fritz Lang, John
Ford, Houston, Hichtckok..... and many, many others ..... We have a lot
of TV films but not more the classical qualities.

What is the best?

It depends of our personal taste, education, experience, age .....
etc...

Best
Luis

-----Mensaje original-----
De: lug-bounces+luisripoll=telefonica.net@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+luisripoll=telefonica.net@leica-users.org]En nombre
de B. D. Colen Enviado el: viernes, 15 de octubre de 2004 22:22
Para: 'Leica Users Group'
Asunto: RE: [Leica] Digital "crop factor"

Well, Luis, in a very few short years digital as a photo capture medium
has gone from being an ugly joke to equaling the quality of many 35 mm
films. It's quite likely that in the next few years digital will exceed
35 mm film in quality - and it really should be noted here that the very
same things you and some others say about the quality of digital was
said about the quality of 35 mm film in comparison to the capture media
that preceded it. ;-)

As to the mechanical quality v. electronics...Yes, cameras like
traditional Ms really are beautiful objects. But is photography about
the beauty of the box that holds the film or CCD, or is it about the
beauty of the image produced by the photographer? I, for one, certainly
want to shoot with a solid, well made camera, but I am far more
interested in the images I produce than I am in the beauty of the box in
which I captured them.

I will say, though I'm sure few on the list will believe me, that I
would be just as happy if someone announced tomorrow that digital
capture was some sort of gigantic joke, and we all went back to film. I
like film, and I like the cameras in which I use film. But that said, I
have recognized for several years that digital is not a gigantic joke -
it is very real, and very effective. And it is replacing film just as
film replaced glass plates. There is no turning back.

There are still people today in "advanced" nations who ride in
horsedrawn buggies; I have no doubt that for many years to come there
will be people who will eschew digital capture for film, people who will
go to their graves muttering about the evils of digital.

Best

B. D.

-----Original Message-----
From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
Luis Ripoll
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 4:01 PM
To: Leica Users Group
Subject: RE: [Leica] Digital "crop factor"


Up to my personal knowing, I have not yet see that digital quality is
better than film.

Secondly, a Leica M will be for me as a old watch Pathek Philippe or
other, mechanical is for my mentality for the life, and always a value.
Digital is electronic, batteries, plastic, technology...., two years and
has no value. Why we need a digital?, which are the reasons? Comfort,
economy of film?.... , we will expense much more with evolution of the
technology.

Luis

-----Mensaje original-----
De: lug-bounces+luisripoll=telefonica.net@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+luisripoll=telefonica.net@leica-users.org]En nombre
de B. D. Colen Enviado el: viernes, 15 de octubre de 2004 21:23
Para: 'Leica Users Group'
Asunto: RE: [Leica] Digital "crop factor"

And what are the advantages of the film M that a well designed and
manufactured digital M would lack - other than film?

-----Original Message-----
From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
Luis Ripoll (Of)
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 3:11 PM
To: 'Leica Users Group'
Subject: RE: [Leica] Digital "crop factor"


For me and very probably for much of us is no important a M digital,
personally I don't need, neither I wan't it; up to this moment UI can't
imagine a M digital with all the advantages of the actual.

For me digital was initially a fashion, now is very probably -
unfortunately - at least for me, the future.

When I was young I maked films as amateur in 8 mm, the  Super 8 was no
so gut, neither the equipments, neither the film, after went the video.
I've never do, neither used a video camera, I've finish doing movies a
lot of years ago.

I hope that when this arrive with the photography I'll be to old.

Saludos desde Barcelona
Luis



-----Mensaje original-----
De: lug-bounces+luisripoll=telefonica.net@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+luisripoll=telefonica.net@leica-users.org] En nombre
de B. D. Colen Enviado el: viernes, 15 de octubre de 2004 20:52
Para: 'Leica Users Group'
Asunto: RE: [Leica] Digital "crop factor"

Sorry, Feli - This has nothing to do with 'stiff upper lip,' because
while I think it would be sad, from an historical perspective, to see
Leica go belly up, I have no real emotional investment  - and no
financial investment - in what happens to the company. I'm just trying
to inject what I view as a bit of realism into this endless discussion
about nothing.

Keep in mind - First Lecia said it couldn't be done. Then, the
nano-second that Epson announced that they had done it, Leica announced
that it was launching a digital M project.;-) Now comes the digital back
- not full frame - for a camera system that has been a loss leader for
Leica for some time. And now we're talking about whether there will be a
full-frame Leica M after the cropped Leica M? I think the more relevant
question might be how many of us will live to see Leica produce a
digital M, and/or will Leica live to produce a digital M. Or will Leica
die, or be bought up by another company, and sell its lenses to the
people who buy a Zeiss digital "M." (And I am inclined to believe that
we will see a digital M camera from Zeiss before we see one from Leica,
but I could certainly be as wrong about that as the people who said we'd
never see any digital M camera, or, for that matter, the people who as
recently as 9-12 months ago were telling us that digital was just a
passing fancy. ;-)

B. D.

-----Original Message-----
From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
feli
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 2:35 PM
To: Leica Users Group
Subject: Re: [Leica] Digital "crop factor"


Oh, B.D. come one now. Where's that stiff upper lip? ;-)  Let's see what
happens and hope for the best. If it blows up in our face, we'll have
plenty of time to bitch about it. Besides, someone will probably swoop
in and buy them if the shit really hits the fan.

Feli


On Oct 15, 2004, at 11:08 AM, B. D. Colen wrote:

> I wouldn't bet on anything "down the road," Feli. Face it, most of the

> market for the digital M is going to be the amateur/hobbiest market, 
> and how many people in that category are going to pay $5000  to $7000K

> for a
> 1.33 crop digital M and then turn around and pay $10K later on for a 
> full-frame model? Damn few. And if people don't buy the 1.33 crop
model
> - assuming there is one, thinking they're going to wait for the full 
> frame model, Leica will go  belly up while people wait.
>
> BTW - Where is the digital back for the R? Does anyone have an arrival

> date?
>
> B. D.
________________________________________________________
feli2@earthlink.net
www.elanphotos.com

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See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information


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See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information

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Replies: Reply from luisripoll at telefonica.net (Luis Ripoll) ([Leica] Digital "crop factor")
Reply from mark at rabinergroup.com (Mark Rabiner) ([Leica] Digital "crop factor")
Reply from mark at rabinergroup.com (Mark Rabiner) ([Leica] Digital "crop factor")
In reply to: Message from luisripoll at telefonica.net (Luis Ripoll) ([Leica] Digital "crop factor")