Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2008/12/21

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Subject: [Leica] un-believable - now 'way' off-topic and long
From: sethrosner at nycap.rr.com (Seth Rosner)
Date: Sun Dec 21 09:02:33 2008
References: <C571FCB5.46C54%mark@rabinergroup.com><B184A12D86ED4CFDA3DC7A8B238C2778@D1S9FY41><96DBDBEB-B11F-49CA-96DD-9A8E6D2EFFDA@btinternet.com><BF70C4AC86D9429A99EA4FB02C148579@D1S9FY41><3cad89990812201800n34ec7f90gfb224928e2d74b9a@mail.gmail.com><9F0E97875E9C4C18B75D5A9B846F4C5D@D1S9FY41> <3cad89990812210756w5e7a18e6xfc175516237c4ce1@mail.gmail.com>

couldn't agree more; it is shocking, indeed almost criminal, that the gov't 
isn't going after those billions of dollars in bonuses. But Bush/Cheney have 
never been in the business of getting their friends, the really big guys. 
It's always been screw the masses. Republican opposition to the auto co 
bail-out was premised on killing the auto workers union.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jayanand Govindaraj" <jayanand@gmail.com>
To: "Leica Users Group" <lug@leica-users.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Leica] un-believable - now 'way' off-topic and long


> Seth,
> This is what happens when you have a financial system where everyone
> involved gets paid upfront, including the rating agencies. It severely
> compromises the whole system, and nobody does any due diligence. The only
> ones affected at the end of it all is the borrower, and the greatest fool
> somewhere on earth who is holding a scrap paper at the end of it all.
> Paulson and co. had taken their bonuses and decamped long before the s**t
> hit the roof....I am stunned that the government is not going after the 
> past
> bonuses of investment bankers that were based on paper profits which in 
> turn
> were based on even more dubious internal valuations.
> Cheers
> Jayanand
>
> On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 7:57 PM, Seth Rosner 
> <sethrosner@nycap.rr.com>wrote:
>
>> Jayanand,
>>
>> Exactly so; except that one needs to distinguish between those borrowers
>> who knew what they were doing and were just plainly greedy to 
>> buy-and-flip,
>> and those - and there were many, and many of them barely knew English - 
>> who
>> were deliberately and fraudulently lied to and lured into signing 
>> contracts
>> they hadn't read and wouldn't have understood if they had. Similar 
>> thbiongs
>> were going on in the auto business: salesmen going out and searching for
>> uncredit-worthy buyers to bring in, sign on leases the sales guys knew 
>> they
>> couldn't pay, knowing that the cars would be repossessed withint 4-6 
>> months;
>> doing it simply to meet sels quotas and get their commissions. I know
>> personally some dealerships where this happened - and the sales guys were
>> summarily canned.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Seth
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jayanand Govindaraj" <
>> jayanand@gmail.com>
>> To: "Leica Users Group" <lug@leica-users.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 9:00 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Leica] un-believable - now 'way' off-topic and long
>>
>>
>>
>>  Seth,
>>> I agree with you 100% about deregulation and the venality of the 
>>> bankers.
>>> But dont underestimate the greed of the borrowers either, it takes two 
>>> to
>>> tango. Its a cultural thing, dont save, borrow and borrow and borrow.
>>> Remember caveat emptor (Let the buyer beware) is the keyword in any
>>> contract.
>>> Cheers
>>> Jayanand
>>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 2:41 AM, Seth Rosner <sethrosner@nycap.rr.com
>>> >wrote:
>>>
>>>  Oh yes, Frank, the folks who adore free market capitalism - run amok.
>>>> Deregulate! Let the criminals fleece investors, earn billions of 
>>>> dollars
>>>> in
>>>> compensation and leave it to taxpayers to save the world while 
>>>> permitting
>>>> the criminals to retain their billions. Don't get me started.
>>>>
>>>> Three years ago my nephew was writing reports and making oral
>>>> presentations
>>>> to clients of his firm that predicted exactly what has occurred, 
>>>> accusing
>>>> Moody's and Standard & Poors, the two major credit rating agencies, of
>>>> gross
>>>> negligence in failing adequately to assess precisely the risks of the
>>>> financial skullduggery that led to 30-1 leverage ratios for lenders,
>>>> mortgage brokers l;ying to and conning poor people into buying homes 
>>>> they
>>>> couldn't possibly afford and the hedge fund crimes that ensued. Josh 
>>>> was
>>>> predicting exactly what happened. The firm asked him to resign as their
>>>> clients were offended!
>>>>
>>>> Now he consults frequently with the finance committees of our Senate 
>>>> and
>>>> House of Representatives on legislative solutions, appears regularly as 
>>>> a
>>>> commentator on financial news programs and last summer was invited by 
>>>> the
>>>> Brookings Institute to Paris for its three-day program on the sub-prime
>>>> melt-down where he appeared on several panels with Paul Volker, former
>>>> Chairman of the Federal Reserve.
>>>>
>>>> Finally the people who brought you this world mess leave Washington
>>>> exactly
>>>> one month from today. They will leave behind a fair number of
>>>> Congresspersons of similar persuasion, so the war is not yet won.
>>>>
>>>> Gals and guys, understand that I am an independent voter, not 
>>>> registered
>>>> in
>>>> any party for decades; I've cast my ballots for Democrats and 
>>>> Republicans
>>>> for the presidency, the Senate and House and for state and local 
>>>> offices.
>>>> Unfortunately the Republican Party was highjacked thirty years ago or
>>>> more
>>>> by unprincipled thugs whose only precepts were to say and do anything 
>>>> for
>>>> money and power, lie, cheat, deceive. They've made the world a messier
>>>> place
>>>> than it's been in many, many years.
>>>>
>>>> Fortunately slightly more than half of the American electorate saw fit 
>>>> to
>>>> make an African-American our President. He's smart, principled and
>>>> burdened
>>>> with the worst economy since the Great Depression and the worst world
>>>> crisis
>>>> since the demise of the Soviet Union. We'll see.
>>>>
>>>> Today seems to be my rant day. Please forgive.
>>>>
>>>> Seth
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Dernie" <
>>>> Frank.Dernie@btinternet.com>
>>>> To: "Leica Users Group" <lug@leica-users.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 3:31 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Leica] un-believable - now off-topic and long-ish
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Completely agree Seth. OTOH it was the government that removed the
>>>>
>>>>> controls put in place post 1929 crash and left the inmates to run the
>>>>> prison...
>>>>> Greed blinds people to reality, look at the Madoff (sp) deal, no
>>>>> investor could have believed it was straight with those returns but
>>>>> they turned a blind eye as long as the cash came in.
>>>>> Frank
>>>>>
>>>>> On 20 Dec, 2008, at 16:44, Seth Rosner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  caught in the economic catastrophe caused by the criminals who have
>>>>>
>>>>>> run the banks and investment banks and come close to destroying the
>>>>>> world economy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1857 - Release Date:
>>>> 12/19/2008
>>>> 10:09 AM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
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>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1859 - Release Date: 
>> 12/20/2008
>> 2:34 PM
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information


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2:34 PM


Replies: Reply from lists at mcclary.net (Harrison McClary) ([Leica] un-believable - now 'way' off-topic and long)
In reply to: Message from mark at rabinergroup.com (Mark Rabiner) ([Leica] un-believable)
Message from sethrosner at nycap.rr.com (Seth Rosner) ([Leica] un-believable - now off-topic and long-ish)
Message from Frank.Dernie at btinternet.com (Frank Dernie) ([Leica] un-believable - now off-topic and long-ish)
Message from sethrosner at nycap.rr.com (Seth Rosner) ([Leica] un-believable - now 'way' off-topic and long)
Message from jayanand at gmail.com (Jayanand Govindaraj) ([Leica] un-believable - now 'way' off-topic and long)
Message from sethrosner at nycap.rr.com (Seth Rosner) ([Leica] un-believable - now 'way' off-topic and long)
Message from jayanand at gmail.com (Jayanand Govindaraj) ([Leica] un-believable - now 'way' off-topic and long)