Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2009/01/18
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]There's no substitute for using your senses - eyes or ears. Good dealers are difficult to come by nowadays. Two channel hi-fi is much more of a niche market now, with many people going to 5.1 or 7.1 systems with lots of bass boost. I've collected my hi-fi over 30 years, having spent my younger days selling the stuff in a shop with a guy called Ken Kessler. As a result, I'm a vinyl, valves (tubes) and efficient speakers man. there's no such thing as a perfect hi-fi component or system. The room in which you listen is very important too; you just have to go to enough live music events (classical, jazz or rock) to appreciate how some venues are acoustically terrible. I've spent a lot of money on my turntable (Platine Verdier/ Schroeder Model 2 arm and Allaerts MC1B cartridge) and I'm very happy now. So now I just spend my money on records. It's just like cameras - you buy the kit you want to use and then you should take lots of pictures. Charlie Chan Cheltenham, UK On 18 Jan 2009, at 08:48, Frank Dernie wrote: > Lluis, > I learned this lesson years ago, like you. I also had a dealer, now > retired, who let me try anything at home. Most of what I use now I > bought from him over the years, the most recent about 10 years ago, > based on listening. I am still very happy! > 20 years after having been so impressed by how much less parasitic > interference there was on the pickup signal using a Goldmund > reference turntable I managed to track down a used one in good > mechanical condition at a not too extreme price. That is what I now > use. > best regards, > Frank > > On 17 Jan, 2009, at 18:48, Lluis Ripoll wrote: > >> Hi Frank, >> >> Thank you for your good explanation, you have a really good >> knowledge, the problem with the Hi-Fi is as you know that the >> prices to improve quality increase geometrically, in other words, >> if your actual investiment is level 10 to have a quality level 15 >> you should pay 20, and to have a quality 23 you should pay 35... In >> my experience when I've purchased something I've paid attention to >> the differences etc.., even the shop who sells me they know me >> after I was very young and they leave me the things at home to try >> and compare..., but once you buy it you are used to listen and >> many, many times I don't pay attention to the details that make >> better an outfit over the other. >> >> Saludos cordiales >> Lluis >> >> >> >> >> El 17/01/2009, a las 19:03, Frank Dernie escribi?: >> >>> Hi Lluis! >>> Before I took up my current career I did R&D and design of record >>> players. You are absolutely right, the requirement of the >>> turntable is to rotate at constant speed and no sound parasites. >>> The technical problem is to achieve this. No turntable I have ever >>> measured or heard actually achieves it. Our ears are more >>> sensitive than any transducer in both frequency and amplitude. >>> There is -no- turntable ever made which produces no sound >>> parasites, and the vast majority produce a lot of sound parasites >>> and at quite high level. Clever designers design their players so >>> the parasitic resonances and feedback are at frequencies and "Q" >>> that listeners find pleasant. Many record players I have measured >>> have very obviously been tuned to only add harmonious >>> "interference". >>> There was one very highly regarded SME arm, the 3009, which had >>> such energetic resonances that they could be seen as big peaks on >>> the curve if one was trying to measure a pickup cartridge, the >>> signal added by this arm at some frequencies was louder than the >>> original music! The other thing difficult to avoid is the time >>> delayed feedback from the sound in the room, both structure-borne >>> and airborne. >>> >>> A few people have tried to lower there parasitics considerably. >>> The ones I have seen which do this in a technically sound way are >>> Goldmund and Continuum (there are others who get part way there at >>> a less "no compromise price"). I am familiar with the Goldmund >>> (the original not the new limited edition one which seems >>> ludicrously expensive) Of all those I know it allows by far the >>> lowest level of parasitic interference get to the pickup >>> cartridge. What Continuum print is technically very sound. I would >>> not be surprised to find it superior to the Goldmund in these >>> respects. >>> >>> The Clearaudio is based on pseudo-technical gobbledygook which is >>> either there to keep their secrets or, looking at the design, >>> simply to separate clients from their cash. In my opinion. >>> >>> The pickup cartridge is, as you say, very important. I also use an >>> Ortofon. In fact the generator design and pivot damping dominate >>> the characteristics at lower frequencies. As frequencies increase >>> the shape of the stylus tip is increasingly important, I forget >>> the frequency limit for the original spherical tips but at a >>> surprisingly low frequency the radius of the tip is bigger than >>> the curve it would have to follow in the groove. At this point it >>> starts being very inaccurate. The best stylus tips are very >>> expensive. All this is wasted however if the turntable and arm >>> either generate parasites or allow feedback through. All >>> turntables do to a surprisingly high degree, the nice ones are the >>> ones that add harmonious interference! >>> >>> best regards, >>> >>> Frank >>> >>> >>> On 17 Jan, 2009, at 16:26, Lluis Ripoll wrote: >>> >>>> Frank, >>>> >>>> This is a beautiful "toy"! >>>> >>>> In my opinion the turntable is not a "main element", the capsule >>>> could be more important. For me the work of a turntable should >>>> be: constant speed, and no sound parasites, the good work is do >>>> by the rest of the installation and also a vey important thing, >>>> I've expend some money on have good cables and connectors. My >>>> turntable is a Lenco L-78 from the 70's with an Ortophon capsule >>>> and it still sound very good, enought for me. >>>> >>>> Saludos cordiales >>>> Lluis >>>> >>>> >>>> El 17/01/2009, a las 11:32, Frank Dernie escribi?: >>>> >>>>> I know most of you will think this high price stuff is a joke, >>>>> and at this price (and actually, looking at the design as a >>>>> person who used to design high end turntables >30 years ago, >>>>> this particular item is a victory for marketing). The most >>>>> important engineering aspects for a turntable to work well are >>>>> not addressed in this design, more a styling/marketing exercise >>>>> (IMHO). >>>>> It is actually extremely high tech to produce a device to >>>>> transduce records without adding some, or a lot, of non signal >>>>> related vibrations ends up being added to the output by the >>>>> machine. A record playing device which works well is likely to >>>>> cost several orders on magnitude more than any CD player, and >>>>> is probably not worth it........ >>>>> The device I have measured and listened to which is the most >>>>> accurate, the Goldmund Reference was very expensive (not as much >>>>> as this thing though) and made in tiny quantities. >>>>> >>>>> There is a very expensive turntable system which, based on my >>>>> knowledge, probably is the most accurate one available. It >>>>> cleverly addresses all the important requirements I know of. I >>>>> have never seen or listened to one. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.continuumaudiolabs.com/ >>>>> >>>>> but not as pretty. >>>>> FWIW, >>>>> Frank >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 16 Jan, 2009, at 20:17, Henning Wulff wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> At 12:26 PM -0700 1/16/09, Greg Lorenzo wrote: >>>>>>> George Lottermoser writes:> > >>>>>>> <http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/01/16/ces.luxury.turntable/index.html? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > iref=mpstoryview>> > nonsensically cryptic,> george >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Quoted from the link: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "When I look at it," said Placido Pappalardo, co-owner of >>>>>>> maker Angelis Labor, "the only word that comes to mind is love." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The first word that came to my mind was 'stupid'. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Greg Lorenzo >>>>>>> Calgary, Canada >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> How about this one for $125,000? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.musicalsurroundings.com/clearaudio/CAstatement.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> But the tonearms are included. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> * Henning J. Wulff >>>>>> /|\ Wulff Photography & Design >>>>>> /###\ mailto:henningw@archiphoto.com >>>>>> |[ ]| http://www.archiphoto.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Leica Users Group. >>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more >>>>>> information >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Leica Users Group. >>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more >>>>> information >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Leica Users Group. >>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more >>>> information >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Leica Users Group. >>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information