Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2018/04/04

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Subject: [Leica] M10 Monochrom oh yes!
From: ken at iisaka.com (Ken Iisaka)
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 10:05:21 -0700
References: <0DA54AE1-6238-4C15-9D24-EDC80D418674@mac.com> <CANzMCD97qO=yOLWaUck8NLMZCxuHOpR=y8yS2vsc1=2a6r7Cqg@mail.gmail.com> <CAJ3Pgh6+G+wrFioByYz1gB2+Oo8BTccTyHLCCxnwjBLm0KBung@mail.gmail.com> <C75948A8-1CE1-4124-B006-9DE9940CCB17@mac.com> <CAJ3Pgh433wwmsLvaX4PMyUUzcdhL03wnouygZsJXEdJe9YcVHw@mail.gmail.com> <7BACF9E2-56A7-492B-A6E1-68B92176674F@rabinergroup.com> <CABXy406WWDk-Q-6N9x5joJ-5XCtm+nS-xHwn3E1zyUR68z0hWw@mail.gmail.com> <DB03A5A4-A390-4EF8-A5C0-C63FE4AA4702@rabinergroup.com> <CABXy406ocG7evmt+BVFTwWw6KYcG26L7Xiy_GFQQqcJcOp=DMQ@mail.gmail.com> <D35D118C-D4D7-484E-B4DA-0A3B0204C09F@twc.com>

Yes, the filters reduce the amount of light hitting the individual sensors,
thus the reduced sensitivity. Without the filters, more light reach the
panchromatic sensors of the Monochrom cameras.

On 3 April 2018 at 19:36, Howard L Ritter Jr <hlritter at twc.com> wrote:

> Notwithstanding any other considerations that may have to do with Bayer or
> other filter schemes, isn?t it still true that in any color sensor, because
> each photosite has a monochromatic filter over it, that site will receive
> only one-third (notionally) of the incident white light on it, and greater
> proportions of any non-white mixture ? but in any case, lose anything from
> just a bit to a whole lot of the incident light, and therefore have a lower
> average ISO than an unfiltered monochrome sensor?
>
> ?howard
>
> > On Apr 2, 2018, at 19:05, Ken Iisaka <ken at iisaka.com> wrote:
> >
> > There are many freely available documents on what Bayer sensors are, for
> > example:
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_filter
> >
> > "Demosaicing", in the simplest term, is an interpolation algorithm and
> has
> > very little to do with "anything blue in the image has to pass through a
> > red then green grid layer first."
> >
> > Here's a description of Foveon sensors, which actually captures blue
> light
> > first, then green then red at last.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foveon_X3_sensor
> >
> > Because all three colors are captured at the same location, no
> > "demosaicing" is necessary with Foveon sensors. In addition, no
> > "demosaicing" is necessary with monochromatic, or rather, panchromatic
> > sensors, as each pixels capture light from a wider range of wavelength,
> not
> > limited to one "color"
> >
> > All image sensors in use today have a grid layout. Foveon sensors have
> > multiple layers to detect light of different wavelengths. Bayer sensors
> use
> > separate pixels to capture levels of different wavelengths.
> >
> > Here's more explanations about different filter array designs:
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_filter_array
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2 April 2018 at 15:32, Mark Rabiner <mark at rabinergroup.com> wrote:
> >
> >> If there are so many factual errors then why not show us one? Show us
> how
> >> the Bayer process really works! Otherwise this is just added to the
> list of
> >> crass personal attacks which have compiled over the years from you. And
> >> let's see one of your pictures Ken!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Mark William Rabiner
> >> Photographer
> >>
> >> ?On 4/2/18, 5:16 PM, "LUG on behalf of Ken Iisaka" <lug-bounces+mark=
> >> rabinergroup.com at leica-users.org on behalf of ken at iisaka.com> 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>    There are so many factual errors. What Mark describes is Sigma Foveon
> >>    sensors. It has nothing to do with Bayer-layout sensors used by Leica
> >> and
> >>    most other cameras.
> >>
> >>    Just go take pictures.
> >>
> >>    On 1 April 2018 at 03:41, Mark Rabiner <mark at rabinergroup.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> It?s the same speed but it can skip having to pass though various
> >> filters
> >>> first in the RGB Bayer process. It's just direct.
> >>> Makes for a far cleaner final result.
> >>> As I understand it demosaicing means anything blue in the image has
> >> to
> >>> pass through a red then green grid layer first.
> >>> Anything green has to pass though just the red gird layer one first.
> >>> And if it?s a red rose its fairly direct. Should look good.
> >>> A black and white sensor has none of that. No grids. No layers.
> >> Everything
> >>> direct.
> >>> Its keeping it simple stupid. I like that.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> Mark William Rabiner
> >>> Photographer
> >>>
> >>> ?On 3/31/18, 12:14 PM, "LUG on behalf of Paul Roark via LUG"
> >>> <lug-bounces+mark=rabinergroup.com at leica-users.org on behalf of
> >>> lug at leica-users.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>    On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 7:59 AM, chris williams via LUG <
> >>> lug at leica-users.org
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> ?...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Leica was able to use some kind of sensor made in Belgium that
> >> was
> >>>> strictly designed for monochromatic images.
> >>>>
> >>>> ?...
> >>>
> >>>    Yes, but aside from not having an R, G or B filter over the
> >> pixel, the
> >>>    silicon is still the same speed as that under the filters of the
> >> color
> >>>    sensors.  The monochrome's native speed is higher only because
> >> it has
> >>> no
> >>>    color filters over the pixels.  I don't think the Leica foundry
> >> has
> >>> found
> >>>    any breakthrough to increase silicon's native light sensitivity.
> >>>
> >>>    I'm not knocking the monochrome at all.  For street photography
> >> or
> >>> where
> >>>    you don't need a filter, it's truly faster and a great tool for
> >> those
> >>> types
> >>>    of photography.
> >>>
> >>>    Paul
> >>>    www.PaulRoark.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>    ?
> >>>
> >>>    _______________________________________________
> >>>    Leica Users Group.
> >>>    See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more
> >> information
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Leica Users Group.
> >>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>    --
> >>    Ken Iisaka
> >>    first name at last name dot org or com
> >>
> >>    _______________________________________________
> >>    Leica Users Group.
> >>    See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Leica Users Group.
> >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ken Iisaka
> > first name at last name dot org or com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Leica Users Group.
> > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>



-- 
Ken Iisaka
first name at last name dot org or com


In reply to: Message from zoeica at mac.com (chris williams) ([Leica] M10 Monochrom oh yes!)
Message from jshulman at judgecrater.com (Jim Shulman) ([Leica] M10 Monochrom oh yes!)
Message from roark.paul at gmail.com (Paul Roark) ([Leica] M10 Monochrom oh yes!)
Message from zoeica at mac.com (chris williams) ([Leica] M10 Monochrom oh yes!)
Message from roark.paul at gmail.com (Paul Roark) ([Leica] M10 Monochrom oh yes!)
Message from mark at rabinergroup.com (Mark Rabiner) ([Leica] M10 Monochrom oh yes!)
Message from ken at iisaka.com (Ken Iisaka) ([Leica] M10 Monochrom oh yes!)
Message from mark at rabinergroup.com (Mark Rabiner) ([Leica] M10 Monochrom oh yes!)
Message from ken at iisaka.com (Ken Iisaka) ([Leica] M10 Monochrom oh yes!)
Message from hlritter at twc.com (Howard L Ritter Jr) ([Leica] M10 Monochrom oh yes!)